Last weekend for Murray / Clouston

Big Ev wrote:

marakh wrote:

Big Ev wrote:

marakh wrote:Well perhaps you should give an argument on what he has done wrong and what he should have done? Because right now saying going from Stanley CUp finalist to last place etc without anything concrete to back it up, I don't consider as an argument. I have an argument against it though: Take a look at that roster and tell me who played a big part in it that we desperately miss..Redden? Shaeffer? PReissing? Emery? Corvo? Vermette?
I won't talk about the coaches he has hired since that was definitely bad.
But the roster moves? Come on... Name me one top team in the last 6 years that had more than 1 player on their core that were acquired either through trade or free agency. Apart from Anaheim who acquired Niedermayer and Pronger thanks to 2 future franchise players on ELC...

No need to give arguments. It's been debated ad nauseum. Everyone loves Murray now because of his pre-deadline deals. Before then he was 100% going to be replaced.

Not sure about the others, I've been behind Murray since he was hired as GM. I love what he's doing at the draft and with the college kids. I seriously don't give a crap about trades or free agent signings, not one of them make a real impact on a franchise and they usually are only necessary because of a poor development system and a lack of depth. An organization who drafts and develops players well and doesn't make a single trade during a year is a great organization in my book. WHen's the last time you have seen Ken Holland make a great trade or free agent signing? Was it Rafalski? or 2 months of Hossa? Don't even remember. Yet I hear all the time how he is a great GM.
The teams who have won a cup after the lock out have had either drafted pretty well, or had one or numerous lottery picks. It's not even debatable, it's facts.
Rating a GM's job by analyzing a Leclaire trade or a Kovalev signing is, IMO, irrelevant and a waste of time.

So you base everything on how a GM drafts? A GM is supposed to help your team succeed in the present. The GM should be the one who focuses on the pro-side of things, and the assistants and scouts should be the ones who look towards the future.

How can you say that trades and signings don't make an impact on your team? The Leclaire trade is THE biggest reason why this team is where it is at right now. Him getting injured had a ripple effect through the whole organization. Same with Kovalev. His character/compete level/age was a huge reason why this team has been so streaky for the last couple of years. Saying these things are IRRELEVANT is odd.

Sure you could applaud Murray for his drafting, but his prospects may or may not pan out. Most fans around the league think all their prospects will pan out. He has two players in the current lineup to show for his drafting.

PS For those who rip on Brian Burke, he was left int he same situation as Murray basically...he also has a Cup and has built the core of the current Vancouver Canucks. Plus he got his team a sniper that they desperately needed, and he traded away Kaberle in a steal of a deal (IMO). If we're gonna applaud Murray we gotta applaud Burke as well.

Sorry I'm late but I will respond to this:

1/ First, I do not think trades are useless, I just don't care about trades when you don't have a solid core to begin with + assets to trade to get some good players back. If we had one, just one good asset to trade in 2008 we wouldn't be in this situation. Actually, we had one, but he refused to waive his NTC (which was given by Muckler) otherwise, if the rumours are true, we would be with Jeff Carter as our N2 center right now...

2/ I am not comparing Burke with Murray, actually I like what Burke is doing in Toronto but he still has to find a N1 center which he could have had if he was more patient, and which is also the hardest piece to get. But, they have IMO at least 5 2nd liners: Grabovski, Kulemin, McArthur, Kadri, Bozak, and 1 1st liner. All very young and that makes a deep group, but still missing a huge piece. If he gets Brad Richards though, watch out. I also think Colborne can be a good 2nd line center. He's like the Wiercioch on the forward position. Skilled, tall, but weak.
All in all, I think the two have done a good job so far. Nothing to show for it yet, but solid.

3/ How many years after Burke left Vancouver did they become a cup contending team? Actually, how many teams have more than 2 players playing on their team, drafted since 2008 and not a top 5 pick? Not a lot, that's why I would say it's unfair to say Murray has 2 players to show
Prospects need to pan out, yes, but you can still analyze how good they are at a reference point. Right now Karlsson at 15 and Rundblad at 16 look like steals.

4/ So you're saying it's Bryan Murray's fault if he couldn't predict Leclaire would get a puck in the face sitting on the bench or get hit by FIsher's slapper on the head? Who exactly that year would have been a better option on the UFA market? It is a legit question, I don't remember.

I think this rebuild shows Murray's capability as GM (good and bad). Up until now he's been propping up a team he inherited, trying to keep it competitive while restocking our prospects.

I'm sure the next GM will take credit for some of Murray's moves if we become a contender or winner. Murray's the type of GM who excels at long-term moves, but that's what we need now.

SpezDispenser wrote:To add to that, he's like Clouston in terms of being a hard-Donkey, but he has the communication skills to be a well-rounded coach that players really badly want to play for and win for.

I hope you're right, he seems like a Clouston-Hartsburg hybrid to me but I don't really know too much about him outside of the world juniors this year. I can't shake the feeling he'll get the job just because of his connection to Melnyk, it just feels like cronyism (but hey this is Ottawa, we're all about cronyism here).

Hoags wrote:
I hope you're right, he seems like a Clouston-Hartsburg hybrid to me but I don't really know too much about him outside of the world juniors this year. I can't shake the feeling he'll get the job just because of his connection to Melnyk, it just feels like cronyism (but hey this is Ottawa, we're all about cronyism here).

Cronyism, or the right place at the right time?

Big Ev wrote:

TheAvatar wrote:

Michallica wrote:that's fine....but I'm referencing this talk of this past weekend being the last for murray and clouston in their current positions. I don't see pierre as our new gm...do you?

The thing said that last week-end was the last week-end. You can't say it's untrue until another week-end has come and gone. The way I see it (might be wrong) is that Murray wouldn't get fired; he would be moved onto a different position (perhaps Sr. Advisor). Has it occurred to you that might be what Murray actually wants ?!?

Anyways, We'll see what happens ...

He wouldn't be fired either way, he just wouldn't be given a new contract. Once July 1st hits, he is no longer an employee of the Ottawa Senators.

so this is flat out what you believe? come july 1st he will no longer be part of the senators organization?

IMO if Murray isn't to be the next GM i hope he's kept as an advisory and they slide Tim over to the job. can someone point me the "why" as to Tim would be a bad choice? apart from the supposed notion that "fans" want the murrays run out of town?

my opinion of said fans is that they will Wing Dang Doodle and complain to high heavens every time something happens they don't like but i seriously doubt that they overnight will stop being fans. maybe i'm too used to the Montreal fans then the ottawa ones but first and foremost people are fans of the team. not of the changes that are brought to it.

sure less people come to games when the team is losing but that's any sport and the majority of cities.

Flo The Action wrote:

Big Ev wrote:

TheAvatar wrote:

Michallica wrote:that's fine....but I'm referencing this talk of this past weekend being the last for murray and clouston in their current positions. I don't see pierre as our new gm...do you?

The thing said that last week-end was the last week-end. You can't say it's untrue until another week-end has come and gone. The way I see it (might be wrong) is that Murray wouldn't get fired; he would be moved onto a different position (perhaps Sr. Advisor). Has it occurred to you that might be what Murray actually wants ?!?

Anyways, We'll see what happens ...

He wouldn't be fired either way, he just wouldn't be given a new contract. Once July 1st hits, he is no longer an employee of the Ottawa Senators.

so this is flat out what you believe? come july 1st he will no longer be part of the senators organization?

IMO if Murray isn't to be the next GM i hope he's kept as an advisory and they slide Tim over to the job. can someone point me the "why" as to Tim would be a bad choice? apart from the supposed notion that "fans" want the murrays run out of town?

my opinion of said fans is that they will Wing Dang Doodle and complain to high heavens every time something happens they don't like but i seriously doubt that they overnight will stop being fans. maybe i'm too used to the Montreal fans then the ottawa ones but first and foremost people are fans of the team. not of the changes that are brought to it.

sure less people come to games when the team is losing but that's any sport and the majority of cities.

That is not what I was saying. I said his current contract expires on July 1st, so if he doesn't get a new one before then, he is technically no longer employed by the Sens so he couldn't be "fired".

SpezDispenser wrote:
Cronyism, or the right place at the right time?

Well with all the talk about how Kovalev, Gonchar and (Hartsburg ?) being Melnyk inspired acquisitions it's hard to trust the hiring/FA process

I just hope he's more than just a winning minor league coach who's going to come in here to kick Donkey, preach accountability and whip these lazy millionaire players into shape because we've been down that road before.

Hoags wrote:

SpezDispenser wrote:
Forget McGuire, at this point I would be shocked to Dung if he was named our GM. But Cameron is a different story for coach, I've been reading as much as I can on people's opinions on Cameron - and the sentiment is the same for almost everyone: he's the next young coach to have an impact, much like Boucher in Tampa Bay.

Interesting - what makes you think Cameron will have such an impact ? Did he not coach Bingo for a while (and fail miserably ?)

I thought of him more like Hartsburg.... success at every level except at the NHL(and he won the WJC twice).

Hiring Cameron tells me Melnyk is calling the shots and wants "his" people in place (not necessarily the best people available).

As for McGuire -- yeah I don't see what he brings to the table that other candidates don't.

If it's going to be Cameron -- have him one of the Assistant coaches until he gets enough experience in the NHL. I don't want him calling the shots.
Sens need an experienced coach who can deal with young talent but also have the respect of the veteran players. Someone like Kirk Muller or Larry Robinson.

so BM and Clouston still with the team eh?

Clouston has 2 games left. Later Napoleon

Flo The Action wrote:so BM and Clouston still with the team eh?

Confirmed!

It's been fun T-1000!

Clouston makes his case to stay:

http://www.ottawasun.com/sports/hockey/2011/04/06/17901251.html

Asked to evaluate his own performance, Clouston offered up no shortage of reasons why he should be retained. He pointed to the success of the young players down the stretch after the club cleaned house at the deadline.

Melnyk said in an interview with The Fan 590 in Toronto he’s already decided what’s going to happen with Murray and Clouston in the off-season.

I'm really starting to think strongly that Melnyk should sign checks, throw concerts and keep his mouth shut the rest of the time.

You can say what you want about Melnyk…he certainly is good at shoving his foot in his mouth, BUT it’s nice to have an owner that is passionate about hockey!! And he’s willing to spend lots of money trying to win! I’m glad he’s here.

As for Clouston, I appreciate what he has done. Saving the season when he originally came in was no small feat. I think the man is a great coach. I really don’t know if he should be given another chance here or not, but my feeling is that he won’t be resigned in Ottawa. I hope he finds a good job somewhere, because I think he’s great! Long live the T-1000!

wprager wrote:Clouston makes his case to stay:

http://www.ottawasun.com/sports/hockey/2011/04/06/17901251.html

Asked to evaluate his own performance, Clouston offered up no shortage of reasons why he should be retained. He pointed to the success of the young players down the stretch after the club cleaned house at the deadline.

Melnyk said in an interview with The Fan 590 in Toronto he’s already decided what’s going to happen with Murray and Clouston in the off-season.

I'm really starting to think strongly that Melnyk should sign checks, throw concerts and keep his mouth shut the rest of the time.

yes, i think the more we hear from Melnyk the more he sounds like a meddling owner. If anything i hope he's going to learn from his mistakes *cough* Kovalev *cough* and leave the hockey bizz to BM.... if he does in fact keep BM in place.

it's hard to tell with his comments. BM is the kind of GM with enough integrity that would do all he can to the last minute to ensure the teams success even if he knew the door was waiting for him.
Please melnyk don't screw it up!

tim1_2 wrote:You can say what you want about Melnyk…he certainly is good at shoving his foot in his mouth, BUT it’s nice to have an owner that is passionate about hockey!! And he’s willing to spend lots of money trying to win! I’m glad he’s here.

As for Clouston, I appreciate what he has done. Saving the season when he originally came in was no small feat. I think the man is a great coach. I really don’t know if he should be given another chance here or not, but my feeling is that he won’t be resigned in Ottawa. I hope he finds a good job somewhere, because I think he’s great! Long live the T-1000!

Went to the Sippy-Cup for pre-school breakfast with the girls and had a chance to scan the Citizen. Read more of what Clouston had to say, plus Scanlan's article on Melnyk's latest. Apparently Melnyk went on the Bob McCowan (McClown?) radio show in TO -- that's where this comes from. He went on to say some semi-incredible things. I really think this guy should think before he speaks. First he says that he has made up his mind about who stay sand who goes, then he goes on for a few minutes extolling the virtues of Bryan Murray. So McGowan asks him if this means he's staying and Melnyk starts backtracking. He didn't say much about Clouston, but did mention Cameron, and how he likes to reward loyalty. Great, we'll have a golden retriever for a coach next season (don't get me wrong, I like golden retrievers, but I'd prefer one with actual NHL experience). Melnyk also said that all the bad people have been removed from the organization. Hmm, Murray and Clouston are still here, along with the entire coaching staff -- does that mean they're the good ones? And who are the bad ones -- Ruutu, Kovalev, Fisher, Kelly and Campoli?

It's an interesting read. Not sure if it's available online.

I think this is the interview with Melnyk on FAN 590.

http://pmd.fan590.com/podcasts/pts/PTS-2011-04-05-5-pm.mp3

I don't think he "backtracked" so much as told McClown to not put words in his mouth.

Who hasn't said good things about BM since the fire sale began? He's done a good job.

The whole "bad people" comment was a little weird, but you can't argue with the results.

I love that Melnyk loves The Sens and loves hockey, but he has to learn when to shut his mouth or at least watch it. Calling players (true or not) "bad people" isn't exactly the best way to go about things. MAybe there were some "bad people" but you don't say it. Maybe saying "deadwood" or something along those lines.

If anythign will ever hurt The Sens signing UFA's, it's crap like that, not buyouts.