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DirtyDave wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

DirtyDave wrote:We blame Phillips because he has 0 offensive upside. You can't compare him to karlsson. Well I guess you can...

100% fact

Persuasive counter argument.

i blame the sending receptacle

Precisely.

DirtyDave wrote:

NEELY wrote:

DirtyDave wrote:3 by 3 is horrible. Only bonus would be if he doesn't have a NTC. This is the guy with the worst +- in the league. Getting older. Didnt allow the sens to get assets for working somewhere else for a few months

Anytime someone uses the +/- stat to prove or disprove a point they are trying to make, I stop listening. Why? It's the dumbest way to actually use a number to show how well or poor a player is playing.

Go jump on the Tom Priesing bandwagon. He's doing great in, ummmm.... where is he?

good thing I'm not posting speficially for you. I agree +/- isn't an all important stat. it was just part of what I was saying. next time I'll be sure to put +/- at the end of a statement.

I miss Roach

I can lie to you, if you want. I am, after all, also a former NHLer who co-authored the CBA.

rooneypoo wrote:
D play in pairs. If you want Phillips to play D for 2, then I think you're asking too much of any one D. Creating offense is needed and great, but you also have to play responsibly in your own end.

Again, you put anyone beside EK, on this team, this year, and he's going to look like a shadow of his former self. Anyone. Lidstrom, Chara, whomever. The deck is stacked against Phillips, or anyone, if you put him in that situation and expect anything other than what we've seen this year.

That's what I'm saying.

I agree with the general point, just not that it would affect the greats like Chara, Lidstrom etc. They have a way of making their partners look like all-stars, Phillips isn't there IMO.

DirtyDave wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

DirtyDave wrote:We blame Phillips because he has 0 offensive upside. You can't compare him to karlsson. Well I guess you can...

100% fact

Persuasive counter argument.

i blame the sending receptacle

LOL. Me too!

rooneypoo wrote:

DirtyDave wrote:

NEELY wrote:

DirtyDave wrote:3 by 3 is horrible. Only bonus would be if he doesn't have a NTC. This is the guy with the worst +- in the league. Getting older. Didnt allow the sens to get assets for working somewhere else for a few months

Anytime someone uses the +/- stat to prove or disprove a point they are trying to make, I stop listening. Why? It's the dumbest way to actually use a number to show how well or poor a player is playing.

Go jump on the Tom Priesing bandwagon. He's doing great in, ummmm.... where is he?

good thing I'm not posting speficially for you. I agree +/- isn't an all important stat. it was just part of what I was saying. next time I'll be sure to put +/- at the end of a statement.

I miss Roach

I can lie to you, if you want. I am, after all, also a former NHLer who co-authored the CBA.

Skip McCreary?!?!?! Here!!!!?!?!?!!?

rooneypoo wrote:

DirtyDave wrote:

NEELY wrote:

DirtyDave wrote:3 by 3 is horrible. Only bonus would be if he doesn't have a NTC. This is the guy with the worst +- in the league. Getting older. Didnt allow the sens to get assets for working somewhere else for a few months

Anytime someone uses the +/- stat to prove or disprove a point they are trying to make, I stop listening. Why? It's the dumbest way to actually use a number to show how well or poor a player is playing.

Go jump on the Tom Priesing bandwagon. He's doing great in, ummmm.... where is he?

good thing I'm not posting speficially for you. I agree +/- isn't an all important stat. it was just part of what I was saying. next time I'll be sure to put +/- at the end of a statement.

I miss Roach

I can lie to you, if you want. I am, after all, also a former NHLer who co-authored the CBA.

then you'd have to change your name to Yost!

SpezDispenser wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:
D play in pairs. If you want Phillips to play D for 2, then I think you're asking too much of any one D. Creating offense is needed and great, but you also have to play responsibly in your own end.

Again, you put anyone beside EK, on this team, this year, and he's going to look like a shadow of his former self. Anyone. Lidstrom, Chara, whomever. The deck is stacked against Phillips, or anyone, if you put him in that situation and expect anything other than what we've seen this year.

That's what I'm saying.

I agree with the general point, just not that it would affect the greats like Chara, Lidstrom etc. They have a way of making their partners look like all-stars, Phillips isn't there IMO.

One different player on this team, in any position, isn't going to change the fact that it's an awful team. You drop someone else in the middle of this mess, with however great a history he has and player he is, and the end result is going to be pretty similar.

I'm obviously not saying that Chara, Lidstrom, and Phillips are equatable. What I'm saying is that people find it a whole lot easier to blame Phillips than to admit to the fact that EK hasn't exactly been competent on the other side of the puck -- which, all things considered, is OK. But it's also a reason why Phillips has had the season he's had.

SpezDispenser wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:
D play in pairs. If you want Phillips to play D for 2, then I think you're asking too much of any one D. Creating offense is needed and great, but you also have to play responsibly in your own end.

Again, you put anyone beside EK, on this team, this year, and he's going to look like a shadow of his former self. Anyone. Lidstrom, Chara, whomever. The deck is stacked against Phillips, or anyone, if you put him in that situation and expect anything other than what we've seen this year.

That's what I'm saying.

I agree with the general point, just not that it would affect the greats like Chara, Lidstrom etc. They have a way of making their partners look like all-stars, Phillips isn't there IMO.

All I'm saying if his contract was previously for 3.5M for 4 years in his prime age. Why should he earn that much when he'll likely be on the decline? also factor in the fact because he won't let us pick up a 2nd rounder for living away from home for a few months.. I think the contract should be 2-2.25 for 3 years..

BTW he has 4 f*#$ points this year... 4!


insert +/- comment

rooneypoo wrote:

SpezDispenser wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:
D play in pairs. If you want Phillips to play D for 2, then I think you're asking too much of any one D. Creating offense is needed and great, but you also have to play responsibly in your own end.

Again, you put anyone beside EK, on this team, this year, and he's going to look like a shadow of his former self. Anyone. Lidstrom, Chara, whomever. The deck is stacked against Phillips, or anyone, if you put him in that situation and expect anything other than what we've seen this year.

That's what I'm saying.

I agree with the general point, just not that it would affect the greats like Chara, Lidstrom etc. They have a way of making their partners look like all-stars, Phillips isn't there IMO.

One different player on this team, in any position, isn't going to change the fact that it's an awful team. You drop someone else in the middle of this mess, with however great a history he has and player he is, and the end result is going to be pretty similar.

I'm obviously not saying that Chara, Lidstrom, and Phillips are equatable. What I'm saying is that people find it a whole lot easier to blame Phillips than to admit to the fact that EK hasn't exactly been competent on the other side of the puck -- which, all things considered, is OK. But it's also a reason why Phillips has had the season he's had.

Anderson has made this team better, no?

Re; Phillips/Karlsson - hard to say for sure that anyone else would be as greatly effected as he is playing with Erik. You cannot prove it to be true nor false.

Re: Leclaire on waivers - so much for him being assigned for conditioning. I take it the management was frustrated with his lack of commitment and decided to hell with him. I wanted to say earlier he is reminding me of Hasek. Clearly a guy who has no desire to play right now and is only looking out for himself and next year, which will be hard to do considering he has to prove he can play, and he is not doing that.

DirtyDave wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

SpezDispenser wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:
D play in pairs. If you want Phillips to play D for 2, then I think you're asking too much of any one D. Creating offense is needed and great, but you also have to play responsibly in your own end.

Again, you put anyone beside EK, on this team, this year, and he's going to look like a shadow of his former self. Anyone. Lidstrom, Chara, whomever. The deck is stacked against Phillips, or anyone, if you put him in that situation and expect anything other than what we've seen this year.

That's what I'm saying.

I agree with the general point, just not that it would affect the greats like Chara, Lidstrom etc. They have a way of making their partners look like all-stars, Phillips isn't there IMO.

One different player on this team, in any position, isn't going to change the fact that it's an awful team. You drop someone else in the middle of this mess, with however great a history he has and player he is, and the end result is going to be pretty similar.

I'm obviously not saying that Chara, Lidstrom, and Phillips are equatable. What I'm saying is that people find it a whole lot easier to blame Phillips than to admit to the fact that EK hasn't exactly been competent on the other side of the puck -- which, all things considered, is OK. But it's also a reason why Phillips has had the season he's had.

Anderson has made this team better, no?

Sure, better, but he doesn't instantly make us a serious contender.

If we get this kind of goaltending from day one, I still think we're outside of the playoffs. People forget, or don't want to remember, that we had solid goaltending (no exaggeration) this year from camp until about the middle of December. Go look at Elliott's and Leclaire's pre-Decemeber 10th or so stats if you don't believe me or remember; they were better than OK during that period. The problem was that we couldn't score goals, and that we weren't particularly strong in our own end.

Adding one piece, like a solid goaltender, to this team puts us in about 10th or 11th, rather than 14th or 15th. But it doesn't change the fact that, as a whole, we're not a very good team overall, that we struggle to score goals, and that our entire D core is just not good enough.

I agree with DirtyDave. It's time for a huge paycut to reflect his play, age, and stats, or its time to say goodbye. The team has said goodbye to other long serving members, why not Phillips?

SpezDispenser wrote:

NEELY wrote:He's been playing with Karlsson 1/2 the time and the kid has a ton to learn in his own end. Phillips has been better when paired with Lee to be sure and I would suggest that +/- is a little more on th favorable side.

Phillips has not had his best year and the games where he was really awful was early on in the year. Problem is when he makes a mistake it is magnified because he doesn't provide the offense Karlsson does. People love to see the glory in what Karlsson does but give Phillips no credit for a decade plus of fantastic hockey.

His decade + of service is one thing, his loyalty is another, but Phillips has been a shadow of himself this year - whether that's to do with off-ice issues or the team sucking, it's still worrisome when you're about to negotiate a new deal.

EDIT: And you know where I stand, I'd prefer to re-sign than trade.

Phillips spent the last 10 years learning how to shut down the opposition, problem is, that's a 2 man job. Karlsson isn't experienced enough as of yet to help on that end. Asking Phillips to do that without the aid of a competent partner in that sense is a lot to ask.

The adjustment period was very clear the first few months of the season, since then he has been much better despite some obvious struggles. Lee is starting to become that right side presence in terms of a partner for Phillips or Cowen going forward. Never thought he would turn his game into what I said he needed to do about a year or two ago, but he has. Phillips has been much better with a partner that is becoming the new shut down D man in Ottawa. Yes, Lee is becoming that.

There are no red flags in his game. No injuries, his skating is still solid, still plays the game better than any D man in Ottawa from a mental standpoint, and he is a player that can't be replaced by a UFA or within the organization without spending more than 5 or 6 mil per year.

Phillips/Lee IMO could be a very good partnership going forward and eventually become Lee/Cowen. Personally, I think those two are talked about in the same breath as A Train?Phillips was back in the day.

Dash wrote:Re; Phillips/Karlsson - hard to say for sure that anyone else would be as greatly effected as he is playing with Erik. You cannot prove it to be true nor false.

Re: Leclaire on waivers - so much for him being assigned for conditioning. I take it the management was frustrated with his lack of commitment and decided to hell with him. I wanted to say earlier he is reminding me of Hasek. Clearly a guy who has no desire to play right now and is only looking out for himself and next year, which will be hard to do considering he has to prove he can play, and he is not doing that.

You're absolutely right, I can't prove it one way or the other. That's why I have to turn to the individual play and history of each guy. Phillips is, career-wise, a +80 or so player who has been a rock for this team for a decade and certainly on of its best playoff performers. Karlsson has less than 2 years experience (118 games) and a history of less-than-stellar D play. So I extrapolate from there. Does that not seem fair?

Again, I don't blame EK for any of this. This is pretty standard in terms of a young offensive D's progression. But to crucify Phillips over this is folly.

Lee becoming the next Phillips? Now I've heard everything.

rooneypoo wrote:

Dash wrote:Karlsson's not supposed to be a defensive defenceman. He is primarily an offensive, puck-moving, powerplay quarterbacking defenceman.

Phillips IS a defensive, stay at home defenceman. That is why he is/was paired with Karlsson.

Are you saying that 2nd year player is responsible for the poor play of a 13+ year veteran NHL defenceman? Phillips knows his job, Karlsson knows what they expect of him. He obviously has a lot more room for improvement, which is obvious and expected, but Phillips should be better than that.

D play in pairs. If you want Phillips to play D for 2, then I think you're asking too much of any one D. Creating offense is needed and great, but you also have to play responsibly in your own end.

Again, you put anyone beside EK, on this team, this year, and he's going to look like a shadow of his former self. Anyone. Lidstrom, Chara, whomever. The deck is stacked against Phillips, or anyone, if you put him in that situation and expect anything other than what we've seen this year.

That's what I'm saying.

Exactly.

I love Karlsson as much as the next Sens fan but he has a lot of short comings and an undersized, very young, offensive D man. He has to learn to play the game through positioning and containment and you need a lot of experience to do that effectively and consistently.

Phillips is basically doing 2 people's job in the defensive end on a nightly basis when he was with Karlsson. There was a ton of blown coverage on a lot of goals to go along with very weak goals from over playing Elliott. Phillips and Lee have looked very solid and that's because Lee is turning his game into what Phillips is, a shut down D man that can skate and move the puck.

NEELY wrote:
Phillips spent the last 10 years learning how to shut down the opposition, problem is, that's a 2 man job. Karlsson isn't experienced enough as of yet to help on that end. Asking Phillips to do that without the aid of a competent partner in that sense is a lot to ask.

The adjustment period was very clear the first few months of the season, since then he has been much better despite some obvious struggles. Lee is starting to become that right side presence in terms of a partner for Phillips or Cowen going forward. Never thought he would turn his game into what I said he needed to do about a year or two ago, but he has. Phillips has been much better with a partner that is becoming the new shut down D man in Ottawa. Yes, Lee is becoming that.

There are no red flags in his game. No injuries, his skating is still solid, still plays the game better than any D man in Ottawa from a mental standpoint, and he is a player that can't be replaced by a UFA or within the organization without spending more than 5 or 6 mil per year.

Phillips/Lee IMO could be a very good partnership going forward and eventually become Lee/Cowen. Personally, I think those two are talked about in the same breath as A Train?Phillips was back in the day.

The only thing I would argue is that I think you could replace Phillips for a lot less than 5 or 6. Guys like Derek Morris, Seidenberg, Michalek, just to name a few. I'm not saying I'd prefer them to Philly, just saying that what he brings isn't 100% not replaceable.

As for Lee, the improvement has been great - but then, I thought he was really good in pre-season and the brief times he played before this. I was really surprised he didn't get more of a chance when Clouston benched him for the 20 games or whatever. I agree, he makes solid hockey plays. Instead of constantly dumping the puck up the middle, he skates it, doesn't panic and makes good plays - either in passing, or dumping it. I like his passing, but his shot's almost laughable. If he can improve that, it could go a long way towards making a career for himself as a 5th D-man with potential to help out in the top 4 if there are injuries.

Big Ev wrote:Lee becoming the next Phillips? Now I've heard everything.

I'd say he has a decent shot as a number 5 guy - which I think is great for him. The kind of guy that could slide into the top 4 when there are injuries. Might be a nice piece to have for us going forward (or trade bait )