Hello..and Thoughts

SpezDispenser wrote:

Big Ev wrote:To be honest, I think when Alfie retires we won't have a captain for a whole season or so. They will decide who is captain material after that season, just like the Habs and Leafs did (well, Phaneuf was a stupid choice but whatever)

Quite possibly, unless someone is clearly captain material.

WAY premature, but I think Foligno is developing into a leader and is progressing towards a letter.
(That's not to suggest, even a little, that he's a captain-in-waiting or anything like that. I just think that he's becoming a real leader on this team and that that's useful to this discussion.)

spader wrote:

SpezDispenser wrote:

Big Ev wrote:To be honest, I think when Alfie retires we won't have a captain for a whole season or so. They will decide who is captain material after that season, just like the Habs and Leafs did (well, Phaneuf was a stupid choice but whatever)

Quite possibly, unless someone is clearly captain material.

WAY premature, but I think Foligno is developing into a leader and is progressing towards a letter.
(That's not to suggest, even a little, that he's a captain-in-waiting or anything like that. I just think that he's becoming a real leader on this team and that that's useful to this discussion.)

Ditto Michalek, I'd say, if he can stay healthy & get back to being a 50+ point player. Love his game, when he's actually playing it. Those knees are definitely a concern tho'.

wprager wrote:
Wow. I completely -- and I mean COMPLETELY -- disagree there. He's playing terribly this year but he *is* a leader there.

Alfie is a lead-by-example only kind of guy. We've had that for many years and it hasn't gotten us anywhere.

Fisher will sit on the bench, stare into nothingness and spit every once in a while. It almost feels like he has distanced himself from the team -- a shame, but the way I see it he is *not* Captain material. He's still one of my favorites on the team, but not a leader. If anything, he'd be another lead-by-example type.

Spezza, on the other hand, is always talking it up on the bench. If he is picked over Phillips that would be a mistake, but over Fisher, I have not problem there (e.g. if Phillips is traded and not re-signed).

I'm not decided yet on Kelly.

Why do you completely and utterly disagree that Phillips is crappy as a leader on this team when he's done nothing to right the ship this year? Fisher I thought would be the best A captain in the league, I was wrong. Phillips always struck me as a 'lead by example' like Alfie. When these guys get old and start looking not so good, then the lead by example doesn't really work. How many practices has Alfie missed this year? 40? That's not leading by example, that's being injured all the time.

As for Phillips, there's nothing you can say unfortunately that can change my mind on it. He's not the leader we all thought, the team lacks focus and lacks passion (to me) and again, while that falls on the coaching staff as well, it also falls *squarely* on the shoulders of the veterans like Phillips and Alfie and Fisher.

Further to this point, who is the 'alpha male' on this team? The guy who walks into the lockerroom after yet another bad period of hockey and starts getting really, really pissed. The guy who threatens younger player with violence if they don't start playing harder, the guy who carries the coaching staff's message to the team?
If your answer was, "...uh....", then I rest my case. Not frigging good enough - and people in Ottawa KNOW it deep down, they just don't want to admit it.

Foligno can be that guy in a few years, but he has to earn it. Spezza already is that guy I think, but he's not gonna intimidate any of the young players into playing better, that's for sure. He's your 'advice/cheerleader/assistant captain', but where are your LEADERS? Where?

Such a Cussing problem in Ottawa - and it has been for years and years.

rooneypoo wrote:

spader wrote:

SpezDispenser wrote:

Big Ev wrote:To be honest, I think when Alfie retires we won't have a captain for a whole season or so. They will decide who is captain material after that season, just like the Habs and Leafs did (well, Phaneuf was a stupid choice but whatever)

Quite possibly, unless someone is clearly captain material.

WAY premature, but I think Foligno is developing into a leader and is progressing towards a letter.
(That's not to suggest, even a little, that he's a captain-in-waiting or anything like that. I just think that he's becoming a real leader on this team and that that's useful to this discussion.)

Ditto Michalek, I'd say, if he can stay healthy & get back to being a 50+ point player. Love his game, when he's actually playing it. Those knees are definitely a concern tho'.

I'll be surprised if he doesn't impress all of us next season. He strikes me as more of an Alfie-esque "lead by example" type, whereas I see Foligno as a more vocal type.

Foligno and Michalek are excellent examples of guys who can lead in the future. Especially Foligno, good calls.

SpezDispenser wrote:

wprager wrote:
Wow. I completely -- and I mean COMPLETELY -- disagree there. He's playing terribly this year but he *is* a leader there.

Alfie is a lead-by-example only kind of guy. We've had that for many years and it hasn't gotten us anywhere.

Fisher will sit on the bench, stare into nothingness and spit every once in a while. It almost feels like he has distanced himself from the team -- a shame, but the way I see it he is *not* Captain material. He's still one of my favorites on the team, but not a leader. If anything, he'd be another lead-by-example type.

Spezza, on the other hand, is always talking it up on the bench. If he is picked over Phillips that would be a mistake, but over Fisher, I have not problem there (e.g. if Phillips is traded and not re-signed).

I'm not decided yet on Kelly.

Why do you completely and utterly disagree that Phillips is crappy as a leader on this team when he's done nothing to right the ship this year? Fisher I thought would be the best A captain in the league, I was wrong. Phillips always struck me as a 'lead by example' like Alfie. When these guys get old and start looking not so good, then the lead by example doesn't really work. How many practices has Alfie missed this year? 40? That's not leading by example, that's being injured all the time.

As for Phillips, there's nothing you can say unfortunately that can change my mind on it. He's not the leader we all thought, the team lacks focus and lacks passion (to me) and again, while that falls on the coaching staff as well, it also falls *squarely* on the shoulders of the veterans like Phillips and Alfie and Fisher.

Further to this point, who is the 'alpha male' on this team? The guy who walks into the lockerroom after yet another bad period of hockey and starts getting really, really pissed. The guy who threatens younger player with violence if they don't start playing harder, the guy who carries the coaching staff's message to the team?
If your answer was, "...uh....", then I rest my case. Not frigging good enough - and people in Ottawa KNOW it deep down, they just don't want to admit it.

Foligno can be that guy in a few years, but he has to earn it. Spezza already is that guy I think, but he's not gonna intimidate any of the young players into playing better, that's for sure. He's your 'advice/cheerleader/assistant captain', but where are your LEADERS? Where?

Such a Cussing problem in Ottawa - and it has been for years and years.

By that logic, Alfie is a bad leader and part of the problem, too.

I'm telling you Rooney, I feel Alfie is the 'lead by example' guy - who can't lead by example anymore. He's got 2 more years as C by default, then we turn it over. He can remain C ONLY if we have 2 powerful assistants.

SpezDispenser wrote:Why do you completely and utterly disagree that Phillips is crappy as a leader on this team when he's done nothing to right the ship this year? Fisher I thought would be the best A captain in the league, I was wrong. Phillips always struck me as a 'lead by example' like Alfie. When these guys get old and start looking not so good, then the lead by example doesn't really work. How many practices has Alfie missed this year? 40? That's not leading by example, that's being injured all the time.

As for Phillips, there's nothing you can say unfortunately that can change my mind on it. He's not the leader we all thought, the team lacks focus and lacks passion (to me) and again, while that falls on the coaching staff as well, it also falls *squarely* on the shoulders of the veterans like Phillips and Alfie and Fisher.

Why ask him the question if you admit that you won't be open-minded about the answer?

SpezDispenser wrote:Further to this point, who is the 'alpha male' on this team? The guy who walks into the lockerroom after yet another bad period of hockey and starts getting really, really pissed. The guy who threatens younger player with violence if they don't start playing harder, the guy who carries the coaching staff's message to the team?
If your answer was, "...uh....", then I rest my case. Not frigging good enough - and people in Ottawa KNOW it deep down, they just don't want to admit it.

Foligno can be that guy in a few years, but he has to earn it. Spezza already is that guy I think, but he's not gonna intimidate any of the young players into playing better, that's for sure. He's your 'advice/cheerleader/assistant captain', but where are your LEADERS? Where?

Such a Cussing problem in Ottawa - and it has been for years and years.

That's not a leader; that's a bully. I don't see any place for that type of personality in the locker room. A get-in-your-face kinda guy? Absolutely. A bully? No thanks.

SpezDispenser wrote:How many practices has Alfie missed this year? 40? That's not leading by example, that's being injured all the time.

I think he just got too comfortable and he's on such a high pedestal that he can do no wrong, even not showing up for practice.

On the other hand, the tradition of giving letters to fan favourites instead of carefully choosing an heir to the C based on real leadership qualities is hurting now.

Do you think someone like Josh Gorges would be considered for a letter in Ottawa with the "criteria" that got Fisher, Redden and Heatley the "A?" No flippin' way.

spader wrote:
Why ask him the question if you admit that you won't be open-minded about the answer?

That's not a leader; that's a bully. I don't see any place for that type of personality in the locker room. A get-in-your-face kinda guy? Absolutely. A bully? No thanks.

I'm 100% open-minded, but I've been thinking about this for a long, long time. If he can present to me reasons why Phillips is a good A, I always listen - which you know full well Spader.

The bully aspect is *not* what I'm going for. I'm going for a guy who REFUSES to lose like we've been losing. A guy that demands the best out of his players and carries the coaching staff's message. A guy who will hold guys accountable and make sure they're working their arses off. A bad example was physical violence, but with this current incarnation of the Sens...there would be some issues in the locker-room. And not bad ones, ones that tell guys to wake the Cuss up - now.

SeawaySensFan wrote:

SpezDispenser wrote:How many practices has Alfie missed this year? 40? That's not leading by example, that's being injured all the time.

I think he just got too comfortable and he's on such a high pedestal that he can do no wrong, even not showing up for practice.

On the other hand, the tradition of giving letters to fan favourites instead of carefully choosing an heir to the C based on real leadership qualities is hurting now.

Do you think someone like Josh Gorges would be considered for a letter in Ottawa with the "criteria" that got Fisher, Redden and Heatley the "A?" No flippin' way.

I absolutely love Gorges. If MON signs Markov over him, we've got to be all over him, especially if the plan is to move Phillips.

EDIT: wow, all of MON's D but Spacek & Subban are UFA at the end of the season -- Markov, Gorges, Gill, Hamrlik, etc. Didn't realize that. They're totally gonna have the money for Gorges & Markov, if they want them both. Sigh.

spader wrote:

SpezDispenser wrote:Why do you completely and utterly disagree that Phillips is crappy as a leader on this team when he's done nothing to right the ship this year? Fisher I thought would be the best A captain in the league, I was wrong. Phillips always struck me as a 'lead by example' like Alfie. When these guys get old and start looking not so good, then the lead by example doesn't really work. How many practices has Alfie missed this year? 40? That's not leading by example, that's being injured all the time.

As for Phillips, there's nothing you can say unfortunately that can change my mind on it. He's not the leader we all thought, the team lacks focus and lacks passion (to me) and again, while that falls on the coaching staff as well, it also falls *squarely* on the shoulders of the veterans like Phillips and Alfie and Fisher.

Why ask him the question if you admit that you won't be open-minded about the answer?

SpezDispenser wrote:Further to this point, who is the 'alpha male' on this team? The guy who walks into the lockerroom after yet another bad period of hockey and starts getting really, really pissed. The guy who threatens younger player with violence if they don't start playing harder, the guy who carries the coaching staff's message to the team?
If your answer was, "...uh....", then I rest my case. Not frigging good enough - and people in Ottawa KNOW it deep down, they just don't want to admit it.

Foligno can be that guy in a few years, but he has to earn it. Spezza already is that guy I think, but he's not gonna intimidate any of the young players into playing better, that's for sure. He's your 'advice/cheerleader/assistant captain', but where are your LEADERS? Where?

Such a Cussing problem in Ottawa - and it has been for years and years.

That's not a leader; that's a bully. I don't see any place for that type of personality in the locker room. A get-in-your-face kinda guy? Absolutely. A bully? No thanks.

Mark Messier is renowned for doing that to Kent Nilsson back in the 80's. He's generally considered to be the greatest leader in sports. Hell the league named a leadership award after him, even though to threatened to send Nilsson "back to Sweden in a box" if he didn't play harder.

Sometimes, you need guys like that.

rooneypoo wrote:

SeawaySensFan wrote:

SpezDispenser wrote:How many practices has Alfie missed this year? 40? That's not leading by example, that's being injured all the time.

I think he just got too comfortable and he's on such a high pedestal that he can do no wrong, even not showing up for practice.

On the other hand, the tradition of giving letters to fan favourites instead of carefully choosing an heir to the C based on real leadership qualities is hurting now.

Do you think someone like Josh Gorges would be considered for a letter in Ottawa with the "criteria" that got Fisher, Redden and Heatley the "A?" No flippin' way.

I absolutely love Gorges. If MON signs Markov over him, we've got to be all over him, especially if the plan is to move Phillips.

Gorges is a guy I'd love to have.

hemlock wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

SeawaySensFan wrote:

SpezDispenser wrote:How many practices has Alfie missed this year? 40? That's not leading by example, that's being injured all the time.

I think he just got too comfortable and he's on such a high pedestal that he can do no wrong, even not showing up for practice.

On the other hand, the tradition of giving letters to fan favourites instead of carefully choosing an heir to the C based on real leadership qualities is hurting now.

Do you think someone like Josh Gorges would be considered for a letter in Ottawa with the "criteria" that got Fisher, Redden and Heatley the "A?" No flippin' way.

I absolutely love Gorges. If MON signs Markov over him, we've got to be all over him, especially if the plan is to move Phillips.

Gorges is a guy I'd love to have.

I hate to use a Hab as an example but you see my point.

SpezDispenser wrote:

spader wrote:
Why ask him the question if you admit that you won't be open-minded about the answer?

That's not a leader; that's a bully. I don't see any place for that type of personality in the locker room. A get-in-your-face kinda guy? Absolutely. A bully? No thanks.

I'm 100% open-minded, but I've been thinking about this for a long, long time. If he can present to me reasons why Phillips is a good A, I always listen - which you know full well Spader.

True. I think I was just pointing out that your phrasing seemed to imply otherwise. I could (and probably should) have given you the benefit of the doubt. The way you phrased it surprised me. My bad.

SpezDispenser wrote:The bully aspect is *not* what I'm going for. I'm going for a guy who REFUSES to lose like we've been losing. A guy that demands the best out of his players and carries the coaching staff's message.

Couldn't agree more, though I'm worried that perhaps it's CC's message and style that's causing some of the leadership issues. A coach-down problem, if you will.

SpezDispenser wrote:A guy who will hold guys accountable and make sure they're working their arses off. A bad example was physical violence, but with this current incarnation of the Sens...there would be some issues in the locker-room. And not bad ones, ones that tell guys to wake the Cuss up - now.

Agreed. It was the example, not the message that made me pause.

EDIT: I can't believe I pulled off that quote-breaking attempt.

Amazing use of the multi-quote Spader, you're getting to be a pro!

SpezDispenser wrote:Amazing use of the multi-quote Spader, you're getting to be a pro!

rooneypoo wrote:

SeawaySensFan wrote:

SpezDispenser wrote:How many practices has Alfie missed this year? 40? That's not leading by example, that's being injured all the time.

I think he just got too comfortable and he's on such a high pedestal that he can do no wrong, even not showing up for practice.

On the other hand, the tradition of giving letters to fan favourites instead of carefully choosing an heir to the C based on real leadership qualities is hurting now.

Do you think someone like Josh Gorges would be considered for a letter in Ottawa with the "criteria" that got Fisher, Redden and Heatley the "A?" No flippin' way.

I absolutely love Gorges. If MON signs Markov over him, we've got to be all over him, especially if the plan is to move Phillips.

EDIT: wow, all of MON's D but Spacek & Subban are UFA at the end of the season -- Markov, Gorges, Gill, Hamrlik, etc. Didn't realize that. They're totally gonna have the money for Gorges & Markov, if they want them both. Sigh.

After Markov's disasterous last two seasons, I think they'll have to give him some serious thoughts. Perhaps an incentive laden contract based on the number of days he stays healthy?