Hello..and Thoughts

SpezDispenser wrote:

SeawaySensFan wrote:

ddt wrote:
Aren't those two kind of the same thing?

Absolutely. Just wanted to drive the point home about his lack of innate leadership qualities.

The only leader I can think of is Neil, maybe Kelly. Certainly the three captains aren't cutting it. Alfie is a lead by example guy, that's not changing, but what kind of leadership is Fisher and Phillips brining? There's the start of the problem IMO.

Wasn't Fisher supposed to step his game up a little to soften the blow of losing Spezza? I actually thought he would. What he's actually done is checked out. Even Goodie Wilson admits it. Finally.

SeawaySensFan wrote:

SpezDispenser wrote:

SeawaySensFan wrote:

ddt wrote:
Aren't those two kind of the same thing?

Absolutely. Just wanted to drive the point home about his lack of innate leadership qualities.

The only leader I can think of is Neil, maybe Kelly. Certainly the three captains aren't cutting it. Alfie is a lead by example guy, that's not changing, but what kind of leadership is Fisher and Phillips brining? There's the start of the problem IMO.

Wasn't Fisher supposed to step his game up a little to soften the blow of losing Spezza? I actually thought he would. What he's actually done is checked out. Even Goodie Wilson admits it. Finally.

I blame his wife. I never liked her, or her music.

SeawaySensFan wrote:
Wasn't Fisher supposed to step his game up a little to soften the blow of losing Spezza? I actually thought he would. What he's actually done is checked out. Even Goodie Wilson admits it. Finally.

It all started with his inability to 'initiate contract' for that stretch of 20 games or whatever it was. Completely useless, we might as well have called up Greening and put him there. That might have cost Fisher his job in Ottawa and it most certainly will have an impact on Clouston not coming back. So dumb.

SpezDispenser wrote:

SeawaySensFan wrote:
Wasn't Fisher supposed to step his game up a little to soften the blow of losing Spezza? I actually thought he would. What he's actually done is checked out. Even Goodie Wilson admits it. Finally.

It all started with his inability to 'initiate contract' for that stretch of 20 games or whatever it was. Completely useless, we might as well have called up Greening and put him there. That might have cost Fisher his job in Ottawa and it most certainly will have an impact on Clouston not coming back. So dumb.

Fisher - physicality = liability.

That's pretty much the Fisher rule right there.

Yep, and it makes him look like Dung. I don't care if he leaves or stays after seeing how crappy he can be.

rooneypoo wrote:

Cap'n Clutch wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

Cap'n Clutch wrote:How about we wait until Alfie retires and make Phillips Captain. A 100% great idea.

How about someone name any other candidate more plausible than Phillips.

If Phillips is not made captain, it's because of PR / optics: i.e., you need a player putting up points to be your captain, which is the new direction in the NHL. Locker rooms & coaches no longer decide who the team captain is; instead, its management, the organization, and the PR machine. That's the only way Phillips doesn't end up captain. As for him being traded, I think it highly, highly unlikely.

Jason Spezza as the captain of this team would be an atrocity, a moral offence against the concept of 'team captain' itself. If you doubt that claim, I just can't have a serious conversation with you.

I was poking fun at you since trading Phillips is a very real possibility now and if that happens he most likely won't be back as you yourself have said. I never said Spezza would be or should be Captain though so I'm not sure where that is coming from. I do think your a little over the top with your feelings on that but I don't think Spezza should be captain either. Once upon a time Fisher was labelled as the future captain and if he's as valued as management makes him out to be I could see that as a real possibility. As I've said in another thread; a lot can happen between now and when Alfie finally retires so who knows?

I have moved, I admit, from "I find it highly, highly unlikely" to "I find it highly unlikely, but now admittedly possible." Again, we weren't in the middle of losing 14 of 15 games when I wrote that; that kind of streak throws everything up into the air.

I'd put Phillips moving at about 80 (staying) / 20 (going) right now, honestly -- two numbers I'm obviously pulling out of nowhere. To me, tho', Phillips is other leader on that team after Alfie, & that's big consideration for me.

Just for fun, what do you think is a reasonable return on Phillips? Since you've snickered at some of the suggestions, what do you think he's worth?

One thing that Phillips should never be mistaken for is a leader. That's my opinion, but this team lacks any kind of leadership at all IMO. A lot falls on the coach, a lot on Alfie and a *lot* on Phillips and Fisher for not righting the ship when it was starting to sink. That alone is cause for Fisher and Phillips to be on the block and the Sens' new GM to be picking new assistant captains. Neil and Kelly perhaps.

To be honest, I think when Alfie retires we won't have a captain for a whole season or so. They will decide who is captain material after that season, just like the Habs and Leafs did (well, Phaneuf was a stupid choice but whatever)

spader wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

Cap'n Clutch wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

Cap'n Clutch wrote:How about we wait until Alfie retires and make Phillips Captain. A 100% great idea.

How about someone name any other candidate more plausible than Phillips.

If Phillips is not made captain, it's because of PR / optics: i.e., you need a player putting up points to be your captain, which is the new direction in the NHL. Locker rooms & coaches no longer decide who the team captain is; instead, its management, the organization, and the PR machine. That's the only way Phillips doesn't end up captain. As for him being traded, I think it highly, highly unlikely.

Jason Spezza as the captain of this team would be an atrocity, a moral offence against the concept of 'team captain' itself. If you doubt that claim, I just can't have a serious conversation with you.

I was poking fun at you since trading Phillips is a very real possibility now and if that happens he most likely won't be back as you yourself have said. I never said Spezza would be or should be Captain though so I'm not sure where that is coming from. I do think your a little over the top with your feelings on that but I don't think Spezza should be captain either. Once upon a time Fisher was labelled as the future captain and if he's as valued as management makes him out to be I could see that as a real possibility. As I've said in another thread; a lot can happen between now and when Alfie finally retires so who knows?

I have moved, I admit, from "I find it highly, highly unlikely" to "I find it highly unlikely, but now admittedly possible." Again, we weren't in the middle of losing 14 of 15 games when I wrote that; that kind of streak throws everything up into the air.

I'd put Phillips moving at about 80 (staying) / 20 (going) right now, honestly -- two numbers I'm obviously pulling out of nowhere. To me, tho', Phillips is other leader on that team after Alfie, & that's big consideration for me.

Just for fun, what do you think is a reasonable return on Phillips? Since you've snickered at some of the suggestions, what do you think he's worth?

That's the thing. I think a 2nd, or maybe a 2nd plus middling prospect, IS a reasonable return on Phillips. Or at least I think that's all we'd get. And that's one reason I'd much rather re-sign him than trade him for so little. To me, his role in helping along the development of our young D core is more important than such a low return.

rooneypoo wrote:

spader wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

Cap'n Clutch wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

Cap'n Clutch wrote:How about we wait until Alfie retires and make Phillips Captain. A 100% great idea.

How about someone name any other candidate more plausible than Phillips.

If Phillips is not made captain, it's because of PR / optics: i.e., you need a player putting up points to be your captain, which is the new direction in the NHL. Locker rooms & coaches no longer decide who the team captain is; instead, its management, the organization, and the PR machine. That's the only way Phillips doesn't end up captain. As for him being traded, I think it highly, highly unlikely.

Jason Spezza as the captain of this team would be an atrocity, a moral offence against the concept of 'team captain' itself. If you doubt that claim, I just can't have a serious conversation with you.

I was poking fun at you since trading Phillips is a very real possibility now and if that happens he most likely won't be back as you yourself have said. I never said Spezza would be or should be Captain though so I'm not sure where that is coming from. I do think your a little over the top with your feelings on that but I don't think Spezza should be captain either. Once upon a time Fisher was labelled as the future captain and if he's as valued as management makes him out to be I could see that as a real possibility. As I've said in another thread; a lot can happen between now and when Alfie finally retires so who knows?

I have moved, I admit, from "I find it highly, highly unlikely" to "I find it highly unlikely, but now admittedly possible." Again, we weren't in the middle of losing 14 of 15 games when I wrote that; that kind of streak throws everything up into the air.

I'd put Phillips moving at about 80 (staying) / 20 (going) right now, honestly -- two numbers I'm obviously pulling out of nowhere. To me, tho', Phillips is other leader on that team after Alfie, & that's big consideration for me.

Just for fun, what do you think is a reasonable return on Phillips? Since you've snickered at some of the suggestions, what do you think he's worth?

That's the thing. I think a 2nd, or maybe a 2nd plus middling prospect, IS a reasonable return on Phillips. Or at least I think that's all we'd get. And that's one reason I'd much rather re-sign him than trade him for so little. To me, his role in helping along the development of our young D core is more important than such a low return.

If his play doesn't improve, how much do we really want him teaching the youngsters though? I realize there are other things young players pick up from vets, but Phillips teaching a Cowen type his on-ice trade is the big benefit of keeping Phillips imo. If that's not there, Phillips' value goes way down for me.

hemlock wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

That's the thing. I think a 2nd, or maybe a 2nd plus middling prospect, IS a reasonable return on Phillips. Or at least I think that's all we'd get. And that's one reason I'd much rather re-sign him than trade him for so little. To me, his role in helping along the development of our young D core is more important than such a low return.

If his play doesn't improve, how much do we really want him teaching the youngsters though? I realize there are other things young players pick up from vets, but Phillips teaching a Cowen type his on-ice trade is the big benefit of keeping Phillips imo. If that's not there, Phillips' value goes way down for me.

That's a "trees" versus "forest" point, to me. You look at 4 months of bad play (on a bad team, with a number of new partners, finally ending up with the not-exactly-defensively-stalwart Karlsson). I look at 10+ years of being a rock & arguably our best D in the playoffs. It's a question of where you lay the emphasis.

rooneypoo wrote:

hemlock wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

That's the thing. I think a 2nd, or maybe a 2nd plus middling prospect, IS a reasonable return on Phillips. Or at least I think that's all we'd get. And that's one reason I'd much rather re-sign him than trade him for so little. To me, his role in helping along the development of our young D core is more important than such a low return.

If his play doesn't improve, how much do we really want him teaching the youngsters though? I realize there are other things young players pick up from vets, but Phillips teaching a Cowen type his on-ice trade is the big benefit of keeping Phillips imo. If that's not there, Phillips' value goes way down for me.

That's a "trees" versus "forest" point, to me. You look at 4 months of bad play (on a bad team, with a number of new partners, finally ending up with the not-exactly-defensively-stalwart Karlsson). I look at 10+ years of being a rock & arguably our best D in the playoffs. It's a question of where you lay the emphasis.

Fair point. You can't ignore his history for sure. I guess my concern with Phillips is with what he'd be asking for, and more importantly, how long of a term does he want? I certainly wouldn't go longer than 2 years for him. You could be right and this season is just a result of many factors, and he could rebound, but I'd say it's likely too that he's going to continue to get worse. In that case, I don't want to be committed for too long.

What about a guy like Sean O'Donnell to mentor younger guys? He's an Ottawa guy, and really, really helped along Drew Doughty in his first year. Plus he'd be cheap and probably thrilled to play at "home". There are alternatives if Phillips isn't around.

SpezDispenser wrote:One thing that Phillips should never be mistaken for is a leader. That's my opinion, but this team lacks any kind of leadership at all IMO. A lot falls on the coach, a lot on Alfie and a *lot* on Phillips and Fisher for not righting the ship when it was starting to sink. That alone is cause for Fisher and Phillips to be on the block and the Sens' new GM to be picking new assistant captains. Neil and Kelly perhaps.

Wow. I completely -- and I mean COMPLETELY -- disagree there. He's playing terribly this year but he *is* a leader there.

Alfie is a lead-by-example only kind of guy. We've had that for many years and it hasn't gotten us anywhere.

Fisher will sit on the bench, stare into nothingness and spit every once in a while. It almost feels like he has distanced himself from the team -- a shame, but the way I see it he is *not* Captain material. He's still one of my favorites on the team, but not a leader. If anything, he'd be another lead-by-example type.

Spezza, on the other hand, is always talking it up on the bench. If he is picked over Phillips that would be a mistake, but over Fisher, I have not problem there (e.g. if Phillips is traded and not re-signed).

I'm not decided yet on Kelly.

SeawaySensFan wrote:Wasn't Fisher supposed to step his game up a little to soften the blow of losing Spezza? I actually thought he would. What he's actually done is checked out. Even Goodie Wilson admits it. Finally.

Speaking of checking out, I saw the following in the latest DGB post (a Super Bowl primer for hockey fans). Made me laugh!

The Super Bowl: Expect to see thousands of towels being waved madly by diehard Steeler fans throughout the game.
Regular season hockey: Expect to see dozens of towels being thrown in by the Ottawa Senators during the opening shift.

Big Ev wrote:To be honest, I think when Alfie retires we won't have a captain for a whole season or so. They will decide who is captain material after that season, just like the Habs and Leafs did (well, Phaneuf was a stupid choice but whatever)

Quite possibly, unless someone is clearly captain material.

SpezDispenser wrote:

Big Ev wrote:To be honest, I think when Alfie retires we won't have a captain for a whole season or so. They will decide who is captain material after that season, just like the Habs and Leafs did (well, Phaneuf was a stupid choice but whatever)

Quite possibly, unless someone is clearly captain material.

WAY premature, but I think Foligno is developing into a leader and is progressing towards a letter.
(That's not to suggest, even a little, that he's a captain-in-waiting or anything like that. I just think that he's becoming a real leader on this team and that that's useful to this discussion.)

spader wrote:

SpezDispenser wrote:

Big Ev wrote:To be honest, I think when Alfie retires we won't have a captain for a whole season or so. They will decide who is captain material after that season, just like the Habs and Leafs did (well, Phaneuf was a stupid choice but whatever)

Quite possibly, unless someone is clearly captain material.

WAY premature, but I think Foligno is developing into a leader and is progressing towards a letter.
(That's not to suggest, even a little, that he's a captain-in-waiting or anything like that. I just think that he's becoming a real leader on this team and that that's useful to this discussion.)

Ditto Michalek, I'd say, if he can stay healthy & get back to being a 50+ point player. Love his game, when he's actually playing it. Those knees are definitely a concern tho'.

wprager wrote:
Wow. I completely -- and I mean COMPLETELY -- disagree there. He's playing terribly this year but he *is* a leader there.

Alfie is a lead-by-example only kind of guy. We've had that for many years and it hasn't gotten us anywhere.

Fisher will sit on the bench, stare into nothingness and spit every once in a while. It almost feels like he has distanced himself from the team -- a shame, but the way I see it he is *not* Captain material. He's still one of my favorites on the team, but not a leader. If anything, he'd be another lead-by-example type.

Spezza, on the other hand, is always talking it up on the bench. If he is picked over Phillips that would be a mistake, but over Fisher, I have not problem there (e.g. if Phillips is traded and not re-signed).

I'm not decided yet on Kelly.

Why do you completely and utterly disagree that Phillips is crappy as a leader on this team when he's done nothing to right the ship this year? Fisher I thought would be the best A captain in the league, I was wrong. Phillips always struck me as a 'lead by example' like Alfie. When these guys get old and start looking not so good, then the lead by example doesn't really work. How many practices has Alfie missed this year? 40? That's not leading by example, that's being injured all the time.

As for Phillips, there's nothing you can say unfortunately that can change my mind on it. He's not the leader we all thought, the team lacks focus and lacks passion (to me) and again, while that falls on the coaching staff as well, it also falls *squarely* on the shoulders of the veterans like Phillips and Alfie and Fisher.

Further to this point, who is the 'alpha male' on this team? The guy who walks into the lockerroom after yet another bad period of hockey and starts getting really, really pissed. The guy who threatens younger player with violence if they don't start playing harder, the guy who carries the coaching staff's message to the team?
If your answer was, "...uh....", then I rest my case. Not frigging good enough - and people in Ottawa KNOW it deep down, they just don't want to admit it.

Foligno can be that guy in a few years, but he has to earn it. Spezza already is that guy I think, but he's not gonna intimidate any of the young players into playing better, that's for sure. He's your 'advice/cheerleader/assistant captain', but where are your LEADERS? Where?

Such a Cussing problem in Ottawa - and it has been for years and years.