Latest Sens/Hawks Rumour: solid or smokescreen?

Cap'n Clutch wrote:

Devo wrote:

TheAvatar wrote:Karlsson is not coming back to Ottawa this year. No way. No how.

That's a pretty bold statement considering it's likely Murray trades at least 1 dman from the bottom 3 in the next month or two and then what happens if mulitple injuires happen on D. You still don't bring him up to help out?

There would have to be a lot of injuries. I think Derek Smith is likely the next in line for a call up. They don't want EK's first year of Entry level to start so he will be in Bingo until next season.

EK should have been called up instead of Brian Lee but Lee got the call because of the Entry level contract situation.

I don't buy that for a second. If Karlsson keeps playing well through the WJC, I will bet he's here in January. Murray wanted him here to start the season, so he wasn't worried about the ELC then and if he is the best option in January he'll bring him up.

RobbyJ wrote:

Cap'n Clutch wrote:

Devo wrote:

TheAvatar wrote:Karlsson is not coming back to Ottawa this year. No way. No how.

That's a pretty bold statement considering it's likely Murray trades at least 1 dman from the bottom 3 in the next month or two and then what happens if mulitple injuires happen on D. You still don't bring him up to help out?

There would have to be a lot of injuries. I think Derek Smith is likely the next in line for a call up. They don't want EK's first year of Entry level to start so he will be in Bingo until next season.

EK should have been called up instead of Brian Lee but Lee got the call because of the Entry level contract situation.

I don't buy that for a second. If Karlsson keeps playing well through the WJC, I will bet he's here in January. Murray wanted him here to start the season, so he wasn't worried about the ELC then and if he is the best option in January he'll bring him up.

If he wasn't worried about the ELC he wouldn't have sent him down a game before it kicked in and then brought Lee up instead of him despite Lee not doing much in Bingo to deserve a call up.

Cap'n Clutch wrote:But there's more. Word is that Chicago is shopping some over priced under achieving players to clear the needed cap space.

Swirlings....

shabbs wrote:

Cap'n Clutch wrote:But there's more. Word is that Chicago is shopping some over priced under achieving players to clear the needed cap space.

Swirlings....

Word out of Montreal is that Habs management were unhappy with Latendress' development and decided a change was needed - according to sources.

asq2 wrote:

Dash wrote:Give your heads a shake if you think there's any possibility of landing Barker unless you're giving up Karlsson, Cowen, Wiercicoh plus much more.

Whoa, let's not get ahead of ourselves here. The Sharks just gave up Ehrhoff and Lukowich for nothing, and you think Barker, a guy earning too much money,on a team that everyone knows is in a tight cap position, who is porous defensively, can get anywhere close to that?

Barker's not even in Chicago's top-4.

@ASQ> The Chicago Blackhawks are the number one defensive team in the NHL with a 2.14 GAA.

"Porous defensively"?

What league are you watching?


Barker is number five on the depth chart because the Hawks have a superior Top 4.

This is only Barker's first full season in the NHL (he started last year with Rockford, and played the significant portions in the AHL and WHL in previous years). The kid still has a few things to learn, as many young defensemen--even first rounders--do.

But then, you probably don't even watch the Blackhawks games on a regular basis...you probably only look at the stats and the post game clips, eh.

Otherwise, you would see Barker's game continues to improve under the excellent coaching of the Chicago staff.

As for being 'overpaid', Mr. Tallon's 'generosity' towards Mr. Barker earned Dale a new assignment in the organization. Nothing more to say on a subject which has been flogged to death.

Likewise for the media-generated hysteria over 'tagging'.

---

@ Clutch> Stan Bowman doesn't need to do anything right now, as the alleged agreements with T/K/K are not, according to any reliable information, signed, nor do they need to be signed anytime soon.

Maybe some moves will be made, but who and where, only Stan Bowman knows, and he isn't telling.

To address the so-called 'word' that Chicago is 'shopping players to clear cap space'...that is the 'flavour of the year', especially among Hawks haters in the media and the blogosphere.

No specific or reliable sources are ever named or cited, of course.

But journalists love to make stuff up, because their audience is ready to eat it up.

So they'll flog those subjects until the cows come home...and beyond.

---

@Dash> I see where you're coming from, but I would be surprised if Bryan Murray gives up his valuable defensive prospects in a deal of this nature, simply because it runs counter to Murray's logic of building through the draft.

The logic of acquiring Barker--if that is indeed in the Senators' plans--is simple.

Instead of paying Volchenkov $5 million--or more--which he could easily command, or giving Picard/Lee/Campoli big raises, bringing Barker to Ottawa would give the Senators a very good young d-man at $3MM for the next two years.

Barker could immediately step in to the Top 4 in Ottawa (especially if Volchenkov leaves, and even if he does not).

From Chicago's side, if Picard were indeed of interest, he could be a solid addition as a 5/6 who can be develop to his full potential with the Hawks, while reducing cap exposure.

However, I doubt any of this takes place...unless Murray decides he won't re-sign one or more of his impending FA defensemen.

But maybe BM convinces Volchie to re-up at good price, and he decides to be patient.

Which Murray has shown himself to be.

---

Anyway, these rumours are just fluff...until something actually happens.

As our esteemed colleague ShabbsConnected has often reminded us.

But looks like everyone's having fun with them, and how can that be a bad thing?

Have a great day, all. And thanks for your enthusiastic discussion.

Cap'n Clutch wrote:Word out of Montreal is that Habs management were unhappy with Latendress' development and decided a change was needed - according to sources.

Even Spector can't poke holes in that rumour.

Devo wrote:That's a pretty bold statement considering it's likely Murray trades at least 1 dman from the bottom 3 in the next month or two and then what happens if mulitple injuires happen on D. You still don't bring him up to help out?

I don't think so personally. They want to say his ELC contract, he needs the conditioning in Bingo, Derek Smith needs an opportunity, Kinrade and Shira aren't playing as well, but they too could use some NHL time in an emergency.

Leave Karlsson for next year and we can all hope he's muscled up a lot.

hemlock wrote:I'd rather trade Campoli before his value declines to absolutely nothing. Not that it's high now, but if we can find a taker, we can recoup some of that first back.
Ryan O'Reilly would have looked REALLY good in that pick now wouldn't he?

Yes he would.

davetherave wrote:"Porous defensively"?

What league are you watching?

He was talking about Barker's defensive game specifically, not the team's. Feedback from Hawks fans is that Barker is horrible defensively.

shabbs wrote:

davetherave wrote:"Porous defensively"?

What league are you watching?

He was talking about Barker's defensive game specifically, not the team's. Feedback from Hawks fans is that Barker is horrible defensively.

I was gonna say. Porous would be an extremely nice term from what Chicago fans are saying.

Dave, what do you think of these Black Hawks fans' assessment of Barker?

Thanks.

SpezDispenser wrote:Me:How bad is Barker defensively?

Just in case this happens (which I'm almost positive it won't), give me the straight story here! I can take it.


zac:
Pretty bad, really.

He's got a big body that could potentially keep the crease clear for his goalie, but he hasn't learned how to fully utilize it. His defensive awareness is horrible, as he is often out of position and loses players around the net as he is often caught staring at the puck along the boards. In addition, he's not a very smart player in general as he makes ill-advised passes and just doesn't seem to know what to do at times. As we speak, he is our 5th best d-man and is miles behind Seabs, Keith, and Hammer in his own zone, and quite a ways behind Campbell for that matter.

At this juncture, Barker's game is strictly offensive. He's not a bad skater for his size but he looks slow on this team as he and Sopel (as they play together this is magnified) are about the only guys on the team that are (somewhat) slow. He has a good shot from the point and is a lefty to boot. His lack of hockey sense sometimes rears it's head on offense as well as he often makes poor choices with the puck, namely bad passes and horrendous shot selection; he's prone to blast shots with teammates out of position and this leads to the occasional odd-man rush the other way.

To sum it up, Barker can be valuable to a lot of teams. He can be a power play quarterback and still figures to have his best years ahead of him. What you probably have to have though is a good complement that can mask some of his defensive shortcoming. IMO he's one of those guys you sell high on before everyone figures out he'll never reach his full potential. There's a chance he becomes elite, but I just don't think he has a good enough head on his shoulders.

If he had the head of our other 3 top d-men (seabs, Keith, Hjalmarsson) I'd be real reluctant to give him up.

shartmcgart (lol):

He's not horrible defensively... it just seems like he always coughs up the puck at the worst times. I read somewhere about someone nicknaming him "even stevens" for the fact that he'll cough up the puck for a goal but will score you one later. I've never heard that before then but it is sort of fitting. On the bright side though (for whoever ends up with him), he's only 23 and has really developed in the past couple of years. He's got a lot of potential that is untapped and will develop his defensive game more with time along with the already great offensive skills he has right now.

For the hawks, he is a sort of redundant player that plays as the #5 d-man when he could be a top 4 on a lot of other teams. On top of that, he makes $3 mil. He is expendable in the aspect that we can't afford a $3 mil #5 defenseman on a team that already has Campbell and Keith who plays a similar game but more solid defensively. He'll be a really great defenseman one day, though.

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?p=22269630#post22269630

Sound a lot like Picard to me.

davetherave wrote:

asq2 wrote:

Dash wrote:Give your heads a shake if you think there's any possibility of landing Barker unless you're giving up Karlsson, Cowen, Wiercicoh plus much more.

Whoa, let's not get ahead of ourselves here. The Sharks just gave up Ehrhoff and Lukowich for nothing, and you think Barker, a guy earning too much money,on a team that everyone knows is in a tight cap position, who is porous defensively, can get anywhere close to that?

Barker's not even in Chicago's top-4.

@ASQ> The Chicago Blackhawks are the number one defensive team in the NHL with a 2.14 GAA.

"Porous defensively"?

What league are you watching?


Barker is number five on the depth chart because the Hawks have a superior Top 4.

This is only Barker's first full season in the NHL (he started last year with Rockford, and played the significant portions in the AHL and WHL in previous years). The kid still has a few things to learn, as many young defensemen--even first rounders--do.

But then, you probably don't even watch the Blackhawks games on a regular basis...you probably only look at the stats and the post game clips, eh.

Otherwise, you would see Barker's game continues to improve under the excellent coaching of the Chicago staff.

As for being 'overpaid', Mr. Tallon's 'generosity' towards Mr. Barker earned Dale a new assignment in the organization. Nothing more to say on a subject which has been flogged to death.

Likewise for the media-generated hysteria over 'tagging'.

---

@ Clutch> Stan Bowman doesn't need to do anything right now, as the alleged agreements with T/K/K are not, according to any reliable information, signed, nor do they need to be signed anytime soon.

Maybe some moves will be made, but who and where, only Stan Bowman knows, and he isn't telling.

To address the so-called 'word' that Chicago is 'shopping players to clear cap space'...that is the 'flavour of the year', especially among Hawks haters in the media and the blogosphere.

No specific or reliable sources are ever named or cited, of course.

But journalists love to make stuff up, because their audience is ready to eat it up.

So they'll flog those subjects until the cows come home...and beyond.

---

@Dash> I see where you're coming from, but I would be surprised if Bryan Murray gives up his valuable defensive prospects in a deal of this nature, simply because it runs counter to Murray's logic of building through the draft.

The logic of acquiring Barker--if that is indeed in the Senators' plans--is simple.

Instead of paying Volchenkov $5 million--or more--which he could easily command, or giving Picard/Lee/Campoli big raises, bringing Barker to Ottawa would give the Senators a very good young d-man at $3MM for the next two years.

Barker could immediately step in to the Top 4 in Ottawa (especially if Volchenkov leaves, and even if he does not).

From Chicago's side, if Picard were indeed of interest, he could be a solid addition as a 5/6 who can be develop to his full potential with the Hawks, while reducing cap exposure.

However, I doubt any of this takes place...unless Murray decides he won't re-sign one or more of his impending FA defensemen.

But maybe BM convinces Volchie to re-up at good price, and he decides to be patient.

Which Murray has shown himself to be.

---

Anyway, these rumours are just fluff...until something actually happens.

As our esteemed colleague ShabbsConnected has often reminded us.

But looks like everyone's having fun with them, and how can that be a bad thing?

Have a great day, all. And thanks for your enthusiastic discussion.

No need to take this personal. It appears as though Chicago is the only team in the NHL that doesn't overpay anyone and has no under achievers. It's amazing to me they haven't won a bunch of Cups at this point. I mean they do have one of the best ownership and GM groups as well as a fantastic coaching staff so what gives?

davetherave wrote:

asq2 wrote:

Dash wrote:Give your heads a shake if you think there's any possibility of landing Barker unless you're giving up Karlsson, Cowen, Wiercicoh plus much more.

Whoa, let's not get ahead of ourselves here. The Sharks just gave up Ehrhoff and Lukowich for nothing, and you think Barker, a guy earning too much money,on a team that everyone knows is in a tight cap position, who is porous defensively, can get anywhere close to that?

Barker's not even in Chicago's top-4.

@ASQ> The Chicago Blackhawks are the number one defensive team in the NHL with a 2.14 GAA.

"Porous defensively"?

What league are you watching?


Barker is number five on the depth chart because the Hawks have a superior Top 4.

This is only Barker's first full season in the NHL (he started last year with Rockford, and played the significant portions in the AHL and WHL in previous years). The kid still has a few things to learn, as many young defensemen--even first rounders--do.

But then, you probably don't even watch the Blackhawks games on a regular basis...you probably only look at the stats and the post game clips, eh.

Otherwise, you would see Barker's game continues to improve under the excellent coaching of the Chicago staff.

As for being 'overpaid', Mr. Tallon's 'generosity' towards Mr. Barker earned Dale a new assignment in the organization. Nothing more to say on a subject which has been flogged to death.

Likewise for the media-generated hysteria over 'tagging'.

I was referring to Barker himself, not the Blackhawks. Porous may be too strong a word, but he's definitely (as you say) got more to learn on the defensive side, and when he's the number 5 defenceman earning $3 million, on a team that has to re-sign its three best players, his value is limited.

Or do you think Barker is worth Karlsson, Cowen, Wiercioch plus much more?

I have been able to watch some Blackhawk games this season, as TSN and CBC have both been showing them. Obviously, my viewings are more limited than yours, but it has allowed me to see some things that the box-score doesn't.

I also think it's hardly the generosity to Barker that's gotten Tallon a new position - that he's been promoted doesn't necessarily mean that he hasn't made any bad or mediocre moves.

I don't know that I'd call Tallon's new position a promotion.

I didn't say all three, I was talking about one of those guys. Barker is a top pick, why on Earth would he be traded for little to nothing? Why would the Hawks give him away? It's ridiculous to think that. We Sens fans seem to think our players are overrated while other players are not. You probably think you could get Boyle for Picard + Campoli + 2nd?

These are two guys most Sens fans are running out of town and according to them aren't capable of holding down a 5/6 spot, yet they are worth a guy who is likely a top 4, or even top 2 d-man at some point? And if you think Picard, a guy who is on his 3rd or 4th NHL team is going to be a top 2 d-man, that's insane.

TheAvatar wrote:I don't know that I'd call Tallon's new position a promotion.

A forced promotion with less pay is what I'd call it.

Dash wrote:I didn't say all three, I was talking about one of those guys. Barker is a top pick, why on Earth would he be traded for little to nothing? Why would the Hawks give him away? It's ridiculous to think that. We Sens fans seem to think our players are overrated while other players are not. You probably think you could get Boyle for Picard + Campoli + 2nd?

These are two guys most Sens fans are running out of town and according to them aren't capable of holding down a 5/6 spot, yet they are worth a guy who is likely a top 4, or even top 2 d-man at some point? And if you think Picard, a guy who is on his 3rd or 4th NHL team is going to be a top 2 d-man, that's insane.

The Boyle who could have been had for Meszaros and a 2nd rounder. Diddle...that makes me so sad I wish we could turn back time and re-do that - even though I like Kuba a lot.

Chicago has Duncan Keith (future Norris candidate), Brent Seabrook (another strong, young D-man), Hjalmarsson who's really, really good as well and of course Brian Campbell - who's over paid but can pot up to 70 points in any given year. That leaves Barker and his 'lacking' D as the 5th guy. You cannot pay a 6th guy 3.1 million - especially when you have cap issues to begin with. Sopel makes 2.3 or whatever it is, so that's more than 5 million for your bottom pairing D-men.

Barker was taken 3rd overall and he's good, don't get me wrong, but not that much better than Picard. Great offensively, not great defensively, not elite, not poor, right in the middle. They're giving him and Sopel away (I assume) at some point to make room for other contracts that mean more to them.

It'll happen, and when it does, I guess the thought process is that Murray wants to take advantage of it. Even though I personally don't think Barker is much of an upgrade over Picard - and he costs 3 times more X 2 years.