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GM Hockey » Ottawa Senators » GAME DAY: Boston Bruins @ Ottawa Senators - 7:00pm ET - Sat. Oct. 24th, 2009; and post game debate

GAME DAY: Boston Bruins @ Ottawa Senators - 7:00pm ET - Sat. Oct. 24th, 2009; and post game debate

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Guest


Guest

Why are some people saying sit Cheechoo instead of Shannon. Id like to hear the rational here because there is ONE player on that team without a point and that's Shannon. Cheechoo is playing head and shoulders better than Shannon as well.

So I'll allow people to explain their view on that because Shannon will NEVER be the player Cheechoo is/was/will be even if he struggles.

M_Christopher


Sophomore
Sophomore

N4L wrote:Why are some people saying sit Cheechoo instead of Shannon. Id like to hear the rational here because there is ONE player on that team without a point and that's Shannon. Cheechoo is playing head and shoulders better than Shannon as well.

So I'll allow people to explain their view on that because Shannon will NEVER be the player Cheechoo is/was/will be even if he struggles.


Because Shannon is a faster, younger and at the moment, a more confident player.

While Cheechoo has been average at best, and seems to be taking a little longer to adjust to Ottawa.

I don't think sitting Cheechoo will benefit him as a player but getting Donovan back into the line-up seems to be a no brainer and sadly Cheechoo has the least amount of chemistry with the team right now. (With the exception of Kovalev)

Shannon may not have a point yet but he also has played 3 less games than Cheechoo and hasn't seen as much "Spezza" time as Cheechoo has.

Combine that with the injury recovery and all of a sudden it becomes pretty clear why Shannon doesn't have a point.

Let’s tone down the Cheechoo love a bit, atleast until he does something to warrant it besides scoring 56 goals 4 seasons ago.

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?blogger_id=121

Guest


Guest

Im assuming you havnt watched a Sens game yet because you said Shannon is playing with more confidence then Cheechoo. If there is a more tentitive, softer, and less invovled player in Ottawa's lineup then Shannon, no clue who it is. He's been awful all year. Like PKC said it may be because of the concussion but that's the way it is.

Also, I would be willing to bet the amount of time Shannon has had on the PP over Cheechoo is close to 100%. So that's a BS arguement that Cheechoo plays with Spezza and Michalek.

As for Chemistry, the second Cheechoo was put on that top line it took off whether he has scored a goal or not. Shannon gets put on the 4th line and it becomes 100% ineffective. So saying Cheechoo has the least amount of chemistry with anyone right now is also BS.

It's not love for Cheechoo, it's a simple matter of who is a better player, who's been playing better, and who has been more productive. Every one of those questions, the answer is Cheechoo.



Last edited by N4L on Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:10 pm; edited 1 time in total

shabbs

shabbs
Hall of Famer
Hall of Famer

I was curious. Cheechoo is averaging 1:24 PP TOI per game. Shannon is averagin 3:03/game. Cheechoo has played 9 games, Shannon has played 6.

Guest


Guest

Shannon is also playing on the top PP unit as the 4th forward, or at least was. They had to switch it up because the PP sucks.

Guest


Guest

So there are the hard numbers Christopher, dont tell me Shannon hasnt had ample opportunity to get ONE point. No way in hell Neil, Kelly, Ruutu, Donovan, should be out scoring him with as little time as they get. (not so much Neil right now)

The only time that 4th line hasnt produced is when Shannon is on it.

M_Christopher

M_Christopher
Sophomore
Sophomore

Cheechoo has been benched/relegated to the 4th line numerous times already this season, so that will help with the hurting of his TOI numbers.

But anyways if we’re going based solely on numbers here, Cheechoo's 20 shots and zero goals is a lot worse than Shannon's 5 shots and zero goals.

Obviously Shannon needs to shoot more, but benching Shannon because he supposedly "broke" the 4th line is a little naive.

The 4th line not producing has a lot more to do with 4th lines not normally producing, not Shannon. The fact we got production from that line had more to with opportunity than it did that line being something beyond a fourth line. It’s unreasonable to expect that line to keep producing every game for the whole season.

And crediting the first line with "taking off" with Cheechoo (even without him producing) is a joke.

Maybe we have been watching two different Sens game but it sure looked like Michalek and Spezza were doing the work on that line, at least to me.

As for If there is a more tentative, softer, and less involved player in Ottawa's lineup then Shannon, no clue who it is. His name is Alexei Kovalev.

For the record I didn't say to sit either one of them, I just said why most people are probably in favor of sitting Cheechoo over Shannon. Neither have been very good so far this year, but until one of them is directly at fault for a loss or play worse than Kovalev, you can’t really justify benching either of them.

To me the only player that has earned a spot in the press box, based solely on his play lately, is Picard.

Hell if it were up to me, I'd put the Shannon/Foligno/Fisher line that was so successful last year back together and line Cheechoo up with Regin and Alfie. Everyone produces beside Alfie, so if Cheechoo is capable of scoring still, he should be able to produce there.

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?blogger_id=121

wprager

wprager
Administrator
Administrator

You would win that bet. Even with missing 3 games due to that concussion, Shannon has 18:18 of PP ice time while Cheechoo has 12:42. When you look at the per-game averages it isn't close -- 3:03 to 1:24 (that's more than double the time per game for Shannon).

I also have to agree about the chemistry. That line (Michalek-Spezza-Cheechoo) has been humming along since they were formed, with the possible exception of Thursday night. Much of that, I suppose, was due to Cheechoo's giveaway which resulted in his benching for most of the second half of the game. Cheechoo is getting chances, both on set ups from Spezza as well as from his own forecheck. Unfortunately he must be sitting too close to Kelly in the dressing room because he seems to have caught Chris' dreaded disease (we really need a telethon to raise some awareness).

I must, however, disagree a little about Shannon being the softest. Granted, Kuba hasn't played since game 1, but I would still give that distinction to him. I will also hasten to add, though, that that isn't Kuba's game. He doesn't beat the opposition into submission the way A-Train and Phillips and Chara and others do. He plays the angles and uses his long stick to steer forwards around. There are two ways to slow someone down from getting to the net/puck -- push them back, or force them to take the longer route. In a single game there isn't much difference but you really learn to appreciate A-Train in a 7 game sereis.

Anyhow, back to Shannon. He is a small guy and his game, naturally, is not to throw his body around with wild abandon. But I really though he was moving well Saturday night. Your point that dangles is not what you need from a fourth liner is valid. I wholeheartedly agree with you that Donovan was better suited to (and more deserving of) that 4th line role. I just don't tip my scales completely over and throw Shannon on that great pile of never-NHL players. Not yet.


N4L wrote:Im assuming you havnt watched a Sens game yet because you said Shannon is playing with more confidence then Cheechoo. If there is a more tentitive, softer, and less invovled player in Ottawa's lineup then Shannon, no clue who it is. He's been awful all year. Like PKC said it may be because of the concussion but that's the way it is.

Also, I would be willing to bet the amount of time Shannon has had on the PP over Cheechoo is close to 100%. So that's a BS arguement that Cheechoo plays with Spezza and Michalek.

As for Chemistry, the second Cheechoo was put on that top line it took off whether he has scored a goal or not. Shannon gets put on the 4th line and it becomes 100% ineffective. So saying Cheechoo has the least amount of chemistry with anyone right now is also BS.

It's not love for Cheechoo, it's a simple matter of who is a better player, who's been playing better, and who has been more productive. Every one of those questions, the answer is Cheechoo.


_________________
Hey, I don't have all the answers. In life, to be honest, I've failed as much as I have succeeded. But I love my wife. I love my life. And I wish you my kind of success.
- Dicky Fox

wprager

wprager
Administrator
Administrator

Another possible reason for the 4th line not producing: has anyone noticed how the last couple of games (maybe longer) they've had Phillips/Volchenkov on with the 3rd or 4th line? Maybe it's because we are at home and line-matching (3rd/4th line matched up against the top line of the opposing team, our top-pairing on the ice as well). Earlier in the season a couple of people (i.e. at least one person other than myself) had noted that Phillips/Volchenkov seem to be on the ice every time the Spezza line is out there. That hasn't been the case lately (Spezza setting up A-Train and being the first to congratulate Phillips' late heroics notwithstanding).


_________________
Hey, I don't have all the answers. In life, to be honest, I've failed as much as I have succeeded. But I love my wife. I love my life. And I wish you my kind of success.
- Dicky Fox

wprager

wprager
Administrator
Administrator

I was checking PP time for other teams and noticed that Heatley had significantly more PP time per game than Michalek. And Heatley is on San Jose's second unit. So I looked a bit further and found this:

Ottawa is 25th in the league in total number of PP opportunities. San Jose is 2nd. Granted, we have only played 9 games (San Jose has played 12). However I put those stats into a spreadsheet, added a column for PP opps per game and sorted. Ottawa still ended up pretty low, in 23rd place.

Does anyone else find that surprising? We've got a terrible PP, so don't you think other teams would want to take advantage of that fact by playing more aggressively against us, taking more chances (and, thereby, more penalties)?

I've been chirping at the reffing the last couple of games -- both losses, both affected by either calls against us (Carkner in OT) or non-calls against the opposition (the Bruins' second time out). Now, it seems, I have a reason to chirp.


_________________
Hey, I don't have all the answers. In life, to be honest, I've failed as much as I have succeeded. But I love my wife. I love my life. And I wish you my kind of success.
- Dicky Fox

wprager

wprager
Administrator
Administrator

Ryan Shannon is a 6'2", 200 lbs defenseman????


GAME DAY: Boston Bruins @ Ottawa Senators - 7:00pm ET - Sat. Oct. 24th, 2009; and post game debate - Page 14 8465873Ryan Shannon
Defenseman
HEIGHT: 6' 2"
WEIGHT: 200
Shoots: Left
BIRTHDATE: Jan 4, 1978
BIRTHPLACE: Leduc, AB, Canada

http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8465873&view=stats


_________________
Hey, I don't have all the answers. In life, to be honest, I've failed as much as I have succeeded. But I love my wife. I love my life. And I wish you my kind of success.
- Dicky Fox

Guest


Guest

M_Christopher wrote:Cheechoo has been benched/relegated to the 4th line numerous times already this season, so that will help with the hurting of his TOI numbers.

But anyways if we’re going based solely on numbers here, Cheechoo's 20 shots and zero goals is a lot worse than Shannon's 5 shots and zero goals.

Obviously Shannon needs to shoot more, but benching Shannon because he supposedly "broke" the 4th line is a little naive.

The 4th line not producing has a lot more to do with 4th lines not normally producing, not Shannon. The fact we got production from that line had more to with opportunity than it did that line being something beyond a fourth line. It’s unreasonable to expect that line to keep producing every game for the whole season.

And crediting the first line with "taking off" with Cheechoo (even without him producing) is a joke.

Maybe we have been watching two different Sens game but it sure looked like Michalek and Spezza were doing the work on that line, at least to me.

As for If there is a more tentative, softer, and less involved player in Ottawa's lineup then Shannon, no clue who it is. His name is Alexei Kovalev.

For the record I didn't say to sit either one of them, I just said why most people are probably in favor of sitting Cheechoo over Shannon. Neither have been very good so far this year, but until one of them is directly at fault for a loss or play worse than Kovalev, you can’t really justify benching either of them.

To me the only player that has earned a spot in the press box, based solely on his play lately, is Picard.

Hell if it were up to me, I'd put the Shannon/Foligno/Fisher line that was so successful last year back together and line Cheechoo up with Regin and Alfie. Everyone produces beside Alfie, so if Cheechoo is capable of scoring still, he should be able to produce there.

PP time is a lot different then his total TOI. Shannon gets more PP time, a lot more, so dont gimme the he plays with Spezza and Michalek BS, that's all. So does Shannon on that top PP unit with a larger chance to put up some points.

That's usually a pretty good indication of how well a player is playing vs another. Holding Cheechoo's shots on goal against him... because he hasnt scored? REALLY? That's the best you could come up with... alright.

Why is it a joke? Because it's true? The second Cheechoo was put on that line things started clicking. Whether you think it's becase of Cheechoo or not, that's one thing, but that's exactly when the 1st line started going.

We have because Cheechoo has been playing well on that top line, generating and getting chances. The Sens wear red at home, FYI.

Picard has had one bad game (brutal as it was). He has been solid and productive for most of the year with Carkner. Really dont have a clue what you're watching out there.

Why? The top 3 lines are working, why would you screw with them? The only line that isnt getting the regular shift anymore is the 4th line and thats because of Shannon.

SeawaySensFan

SeawaySensFan
Franchise Player
Franchise Player

N4L wrote:Why are some people saying sit Cheechoo instead of Shannon. Id like to hear the rational here because there is ONE player on that team without a point and that's Shannon. Cheechoo is playing head and shoulders better than Shannon as well.

So I'll allow people to explain their view on that because Shannon will NEVER be the player Cheechoo is/was/will be even if he struggles.

Because Shannon has established himself as a "fan favourite". You know, hard working, tenacious, speedy. If you can rate highly in the popularity contest in Ottawa, you're good. Results matter less at that point. I'd give other examples but I'd be accused of some sort of bias. GAME DAY: Boston Bruins @ Ottawa Senators - 7:00pm ET - Sat. Oct. 24th, 2009; and post game debate - Page 14 159628

I literally called Cheechoo a piece of Dung on many occasions. He turned me around with his PLAY. I'm even starting to think that the knocks on his skating are greatly exaggerated.

Guest


Guest

Well Fisher has been good so far this year big guy, he's on pace for a career year, haha, so right now that would be a little uncalled for, but I get your point.

Cheechoo has been fine and will start scoring if he keeps it up. He's getting chances in the dirty area's, working hard on both sides of the puck, so on and on. Both his line mates are clicking with him and that is one of the many things that look good and promising in Ottawa right now.

Shannon sucks. I have no doubt that his concussion problems have a role in this like PKC said (once again), but you get paid good money to play hockey, deal with it or dont play.

Hoags

Hoags
All-Star
All-Star

Cheechoo is really starting to frustrate me but I find that overall he is playing good. Mind you he could be playing better, he should try more to create his own chances instead of waiting for a pass but he does hit and I see him parked in front of the net quite a lot. He doesn't seem to get any credit for that.

He's had some good chances, I think he'll score some eventually and then things will be downhill from there, he just needs to get over that hump.

wprager

wprager
Administrator
Administrator

SeawaySensFan wrote:
N4L wrote:Why are some people saying sit Cheechoo instead of Shannon. Id like to hear the rational here because there is ONE player on that team without a point and that's Shannon. Cheechoo is playing head and shoulders better than Shannon as well.

So I'll allow people to explain their view on that because Shannon will NEVER be the player Cheechoo is/was/will be even if he struggles.

Because Shannon has established himself as a "fan favourite". You know, hard working, tenacious, speedy. If you can rate highly in the popularity contest in Ottawa, you're good. Results matter less at that point. I'd give other examples but I'd be accused of some sort of bias. GAME DAY: Boston Bruins @ Ottawa Senators - 7:00pm ET - Sat. Oct. 24th, 2009; and post game debate - Page 14 159628

I literally called Cheechoo a piece of Dung on many occasions. He turned me around with his PLAY. I'm even starting to think that the knocks on his skating are greatly exaggerated.

Oh, you must be talking about Magnus Arvedson, then. Or Wade Redden prior to Chara leaving. GAME DAY: Boston Bruins @ Ottawa Senators - 7:00pm ET - Sat. Oct. 24th, 2009; and post game debate - Page 14 159628


_________________
Hey, I don't have all the answers. In life, to be honest, I've failed as much as I have succeeded. But I love my wife. I love my life. And I wish you my kind of success.
- Dicky Fox

SeawaySensFan

SeawaySensFan
Franchise Player
Franchise Player

wprager wrote:Oh, you must be talking about Magnus Arvedson, then. Or Wade Redden prior to Chara leaving. GAME DAY: Boston Bruins @ Ottawa Senators - 7:00pm ET - Sat. Oct. 24th, 2009; and post game debate - Page 14 159628

Redden for sure.

wprager

wprager
Administrator
Administrator

SeawaySensFan wrote:
wprager wrote:Oh, you must be talking about Magnus Arvedson, then. Or Wade Redden prior to Chara leaving. GAME DAY: Boston Bruins @ Ottawa Senators - 7:00pm ET - Sat. Oct. 24th, 2009; and post game debate - Page 14 159628

Redden for sure.

Isn't he actually doing pretty well now?


_________________
Hey, I don't have all the answers. In life, to be honest, I've failed as much as I have succeeded. But I love my wife. I love my life. And I wish you my kind of success.
- Dicky Fox

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