Dudley resigns from Blackhawks, joins Thrashers...

Meh, you went too deep. I just don't like Waddell, I think he's made a few really, really amateur moves. I think with the money they have invested in the payroll, they could definitely be better. I also think their scouting blows - and that falls to Waddell as well. You don't need to spend outrageous sums of money to win, you just needed to adapt to both the cap and the internal cap. If your internal cap is 45, then make sure you have the right guys in place - in the right areas. Didn't think he did that personally.

SpezDispenser wrote:Meh, you went too deep. I just don't like Waddell, I think he's made a few really, really amateur moves. I think with the money they have invested in the payroll, they could definitely be better. I also think their scouting blows - and that falls to Waddell as well. You don't need to spend outrageous sums of money to win, you just needed to adapt to both the cap and the internal cap. If your internal cap is 45, then make sure you have the right guys in place - in the right areas. Didn't think he did that personally.

The problem you don't know anything about Waddell or his background.

From Wikipedia:

Don Waddell was the assistant GM of the Detroit Red Wings from 1997–98. He won a Stanley Cup championship with the team in the 1998 season. In June 1998, he was named the GM of the newly founded Atlanta Thrashers. Under Waddell, the Thrashers have a total record of 273-367-45-53, making the playoffs once. Waddell is best known for drafting Russian superstar Ilya Kovalchuk.

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Waddell took on a thankless--though we can assume well paid--job when he took on his duties as GM and Executive VP of the Atlanta franchise, a franchise that has stumbled from Day One.

He's never had the tools to make the franchise successful.

Your criticism is based on a superficial, and unfair perception. As you are one of the Founders of the GM Hockey Forum, members look to you as a model, and influential voice.

I agree the Thrashers have been a failure, and I also agree that Atlanta should not have gotten another expansion franchise in the first place.

But dump on Waddell? That's just wrong.

Yeah, that Coburn for Zhitnik trade was fantastic.

SpezDispenser wrote:Meh, you went too deep. I just don't like Waddell, I think he's made a few really, really amateur moves. I think with the money they have invested in the payroll, they could definitely be better. I also think their scouting blows - and that falls to Waddell as well. You don't need to spend outrageous sums of money to win, you just needed to adapt to both the cap and the internal cap. If your internal cap is 45, then make sure you have the right guys in place - in the right areas. Didn't think he did that personally.

Nashville skates circles around the Thrashers in that regard.

asq2 wrote:Yeah, that Coburn for Zhitnik trade was fantastic.

Easy for you to say, and easy for you to be sarcastic, isn't it?

So give us the details behind the Zhitnik-Coburn trade...if you know them, and tell us why Waddell is the idiot you seem to suggest he is.

davetherave wrote:

asq2 wrote:Yeah, that Coburn for Zhitnik trade was fantastic.

Easy for you to say, and easy for you to be sarcastic, isn't it?

So give us the details behind the Zhitnik-Coburn trade...if you know them, and tell us why Waddell is the idiot you seem to suggest he is.

I never said Waddell is an idiot, I just don't see him winning any managerial awards any time soon.

He gave up an 8th over-all, 22 year old d-man for an over the hill Zhitnik. You can partially justify that move by claiming that they needed that for their playoff push, but it was way too much to give up and way too early to give up on Coburn. He's proven that by being a dominant d-man for Philadelphia.

Anyway, on its own, it's not terrible, when you look at how much the Preds gave up for Forsberg. But the difference is that the Preds stomached the losses and remained competitive. The Thrashers haven't been even remotely competitive any other season. I also don't think he made a great deal with Pittsburgh over Hossa, especially now that Christensen is in Anaheim.

SpezDispenser wrote:Oh man. Waddell is pooping his pantaloons right now.

You're a dead man walking Waddell. Pack your Dung.

Waddell hired him. I was hearing on the radio that this was strictly Waddell's call. Although, much like Murray in Ottawa, Waddell could very well have hired his replacement. That's if Dudley sticks around. He's a flake. Remember him in Ottawa? I bet alot of people wouldn't. He was our GM for ONE season, before quitting and moving on to greener pastures. This is a trend with this guy. If I were a GM, I wouldn't want anything to do with this merc.

asq2 wrote:

davetherave wrote:

asq2 wrote:Yeah, that Coburn for Zhitnik trade was fantastic.

Easy for you to say, and easy for you to be sarcastic, isn't it?

So give us the details behind the Zhitnik-Coburn trade...if you know them, and tell us why Waddell is the idiot you seem to suggest he is.

I never said Waddell is an idiot, I just don't see him winning any managerial awards any time soon.

He gave up an 8th over-all, 22 year old d-man for an over the hill Zhitnik. You can partially justify that move by claiming that they needed that for their playoff push, but it was way too much to give up and way too early to give up on Coburn. He's proven that by being a dominant d-man for Philadelphia.

Anyway, on its own, it's not terrible, when you look at how much the Preds gave up for Forsberg. But the difference is that the Preds stomached the losses and remained competitive. The Thrashers haven't been even remotely competitive any other season. I also don't think he made a great deal with Pittsburgh over Hossa, especially now that Christensen is in Anaheim.

That Zhitnik/Coburn deal is so embarassingly one-sided it's not funny. In addition to the player he gave up to get Zhitnik, he took on a much bigger cap hit. I agree with your take on the Preds too. That season they were neck and neck with Detroit. They rolled the dice...can't blame them for that. Many a deadline day have passed that I wish the Sens had that attitude. Oh wait.....we got Lapointe a couple of years ago, what am I thinking.

hemlock wrote:

asq2 wrote:

davetherave wrote:

asq2 wrote:Yeah, that Coburn for Zhitnik trade was fantastic.

Easy for you to say, and easy for you to be sarcastic, isn't it?

So give us the details behind the Zhitnik-Coburn trade...if you know them, and tell us why Waddell is the idiot you seem to suggest he is.

I never said Waddell is an idiot, I just don't see him winning any managerial awards any time soon.

He gave up an 8th over-all, 22 year old d-man for an over the hill Zhitnik. You can partially justify that move by claiming that they needed that for their playoff push, but it was way too much to give up and way too early to give up on Coburn. He's proven that by being a dominant d-man for Philadelphia.

Anyway, on its own, it's not terrible, when you look at how much the Preds gave up for Forsberg. But the difference is that the Preds stomached the losses and remained competitive. The Thrashers haven't been even remotely competitive any other season. I also don't think he made a great deal with Pittsburgh over Hossa, especially now that Christensen is in Anaheim.

That Zhitnik/Coburn deal is so embarassingly one-sided it's not funny. In addition to the player he gave up to get Zhitnik, he took on a much bigger cap hit. I agree with your take on the Preds too. That season they were neck and neck with Detroit. They rolled the dice...can't blame them for that. Many a deadline day have passed that I wish the Sens had that attitude. Oh wait.....we got Lapointe a couple of years ago, what am I thinking.

Yeah, but that was just one trade deadline of disappointment. I mean, think of the Oleg Saprykins, Mike Morrisons, Peter Bondras, Greg De Vrieses et al.

asq2 wrote:

davetherave wrote:

asq2 wrote:Yeah, that Coburn for Zhitnik trade was fantastic.

Easy for you to say, and easy for you to be sarcastic, isn't it?

So give us the details behind the Zhitnik-Coburn trade...if you know them, and tell us why Waddell is the idiot you seem to suggest he is.

I never said Waddell is an idiot, I just don't see him winning any managerial awards any time soon.

He gave up an 8th over-all, 22 year old d-man for an over the hill Zhitnik. You can partially justify that move by claiming that they needed that for their playoff push, but it was way too much to give up and way too early to give up on Coburn. He's proven that by being a dominant d-man for Philadelphia.

Anyway, on its own, it's not terrible, when you look at how much the Preds gave up for Forsberg. But the difference is that the Preds stomached the losses and remained competitive. The Thrashers haven't been even remotely competitive any other season. I also don't think he made a great deal with Pittsburgh over Hossa, especially now that Christensen is in Anaheim.

Of course Waddell isn't going to win any managerial awards. He's been nursing a sick franchise from Day One.

The Thrashers are actually a fundamentally better team now than they've ever been, and with John Anderson as coach, they have the elements of a potentially competitive club.

That makes the franchise more attractive to potential buyers; and that is part of Waddell's job.

So whether fans think his trades are good or not, the fact is the team got a top pick in Bogosian and will get another top pick this year.

They've rid themselves of onerous contracts and many fringe players as well.

Lehtonen, Pavelec, Bogosian, Enstrom, Little and Kovalchuk are valuable assets.

Bringing Dudley in means that Atlanta may acquire even more assets--and that they will improve their player development on a variety of levels.

That would be good news for the potential buyer, as well as the team. And if the team stays there, they may be able to put a competitive, or at least entertainiing product on the ice.

asq2 wrote:

hemlock wrote:

asq2 wrote:

davetherave wrote:

asq2 wrote:Yeah, that Coburn for Zhitnik trade was fantastic.

Easy for you to say, and easy for you to be sarcastic, isn't it?

So give us the details behind the Zhitnik-Coburn trade...if you know them, and tell us why Waddell is the idiot you seem to suggest he is.

I never said Waddell is an idiot, I just don't see him winning any managerial awards any time soon.

He gave up an 8th over-all, 22 year old d-man for an over the hill Zhitnik. You can partially justify that move by claiming that they needed that for their playoff push, but it was way too much to give up and way too early to give up on Coburn. He's proven that by being a dominant d-man for Philadelphia.

Anyway, on its own, it's not terrible, when you look at how much the Preds gave up for Forsberg. But the difference is that the Preds stomached the losses and remained competitive. The Thrashers haven't been even remotely competitive any other season. I also don't think he made a great deal with Pittsburgh over Hossa, especially now that Christensen is in Anaheim.

That Zhitnik/Coburn deal is so embarassingly one-sided it's not funny. In addition to the player he gave up to get Zhitnik, he took on a much bigger cap hit. I agree with your take on the Preds too. That season they were neck and neck with Detroit. They rolled the dice...can't blame them for that. Many a deadline day have passed that I wish the Sens had that attitude. Oh wait.....we got Lapointe a couple of years ago, what am I thinking.

Yeah, but that was just one trade deadline of disappointment. I mean, think of the Oleg Saprykins, Mike Morrisons, Peter Bondras, Greg De Vrieses et al.

Yet somehow, every year we get sucked into believing that this is the year we make a splash that's going to put us over the top. Murray's been the type to make his deadline deals early, leaving us with our cheese hanging in the wind on the actual day of the deadline. I'll freely admit to spending the last few deadline days with one eye on the TV, while constantly hitting refresh on tsn.ca

davetherave wrote:

asq2 wrote:

davetherave wrote:

asq2 wrote:Yeah, that Coburn for Zhitnik trade was fantastic.

Easy for you to say, and easy for you to be sarcastic, isn't it?

So give us the details behind the Zhitnik-Coburn trade...if you know them, and tell us why Waddell is the idiot you seem to suggest he is.

I never said Waddell is an idiot, I just don't see him winning any managerial awards any time soon.

He gave up an 8th over-all, 22 year old d-man for an over the hill Zhitnik. You can partially justify that move by claiming that they needed that for their playoff push, but it was way too much to give up and way too early to give up on Coburn. He's proven that by being a dominant d-man for Philadelphia.

Anyway, on its own, it's not terrible, when you look at how much the Preds gave up for Forsberg. But the difference is that the Preds stomached the losses and remained competitive. The Thrashers haven't been even remotely competitive any other season. I also don't think he made a great deal with Pittsburgh over Hossa, especially now that Christensen is in Anaheim.

Of course Waddell isn't going to win any managerial awards. He's been nursing a sick franchise from Day One.

The Thrashers are actually a fundamentally better team now than they've ever been, and with John Anderson as coach, they have the elements of a potentially competitive club.

That makes the franchise more attractive to potential buyers; and that is part of Waddell's job.

So whether fans think his trades are good or not, the fact is the team got a top pick in Bogosian and will get another top pick this year.

They've rid themselves of onerous contracts and many fringe players as well.

Lehtonen, Pavelec, Bogosian, Enstrom, Little and Kovalchuk are valuable assets.

Bringing Dudley in means that Atlanta may acquire even more assets--and that they will improve their player development on a variety of levels.

That would be good news for the potential buyer, as well as the team. And if the team stays there, they may be able to put a competitive, or at least entertainiing product on the ice.

Getting a top pick is nice. Getting a top pick every season is a sign that something's wrong. In fact, it's because his trades are bad that they are getting so many high picks. Look how frequent it is: 1999 Stefan first overall. 2000 Heatley second overall. 2001 Kovalchuk first overall. 2002 Lehtonen second overall. 2003 Coburn 8th overall. 2004 Valabik 10th overall. 2005 Alex Bourret 16th overall (keep in mind this was the lottery draft). 2006 Little 12th overall. 2007 they didn't have a first or second round pick. 2008 Bogosian 4th overall. 2009 probably Kane 4th overall.

This team is getting a high pick every season. Cutting fringe NHLers from their roster? They brought in Rich Peverley to play with Kovalchuk. Garnett Exelby still gets a regular shift. They dealt an elite talent in Hossa for 3rd liners.

I sympathize with Waddell that it is not a team with great financial support. That is not his fault. But he's not done nearly as good a job as his counterparts in Nashville or Columbus. I just don't think the Thrashers have been well-run. Because of that, they're probably losing Kovalchuk. And what deals have they made that would suggest they'll get good value for him?

ASQ> right now the Thrashers are just trying to (a) survive, (b) put a reasonable product on the ice (c) clean up the organization so that the team can move forward, (d) put new hockey men in place so Waddell can focus on executive and fiscal decisions.

Hence the Anderson and Dudley hirings.

davetherave wrote:ASQ> right now the Thrashers are just trying to (a) survive, (b) put a reasonable product on the ice (c) clean up the organization so that the team can move forward, (d) put new hockey men in place so Waddell can focus on executive and fiscal decisions.

Hence the Anderson and Dudley hirings.

But I think that's the point. Considering his track record, should Waddell focus on executive and fiscal decisions?

hemlock wrote:

davetherave wrote:ASQ> right now the Thrashers are just trying to (a) survive, (b) put a reasonable product on the ice (c) clean up the organization so that the team can move forward, (d) put new hockey men in place so Waddell can focus on executive and fiscal decisions.

Hence the Anderson and Dudley hirings.

But I think that's the point. Considering his track record, should Waddell focus on executive and fiscal decisions?

That's exactly what Waddell was unable to do because of the ownership mess. Are you not familiar with that situation?

His 'track record'--as you put it--was the direct result of that mess.

davetherave wrote:ASQ> right now the Thrashers are just trying to (a) survive, (b) put a reasonable product on the ice (c) clean up the organization so that the team can move forward, (d) put new hockey men in place so Waddell can focus on executive and fiscal decisions.

Hence the Anderson and Dudley hirings.

So you're saying Waddell's poor hockey decisions are excused by the fact that the team is in a financial mess? Are the successes of Columbus' and Nashville's management supererogatory?

I'm not disagreeing with you that (a), (b), (c) and (d) need to happen. I'm just not sure he's the right man to do (a).

davetherave wrote:

hemlock wrote:

davetherave wrote:ASQ> right now the Thrashers are just trying to (a) survive, (b) put a reasonable product on the ice (c) clean up the organization so that the team can move forward, (d) put new hockey men in place so Waddell can focus on executive and fiscal decisions.

Hence the Anderson and Dudley hirings.

But I think that's the point. Considering his track record, should Waddell focus on executive and fiscal decisions?

That's exactly what Waddell was unable to do because of the ownership mess. Are you not familiar with that situation?

His 'track record'--as you put it--was the direct result of that mess.

Waddell is incompetant as a GM plain and simple. They ought to be bringing in quality hockey guys to replace him, not support him.

To blame his questionable trades on bad ownership is a cop-out. At the end of the day, he's got control of the hockey decisions. He got ONE decent prospect in Esposito and some scrubs for a 40 goal man who is sound defensively. That was not a monetary decision either. Hossa was going to leave regardless of what Atlanta offered, and he knew it.

asq2 wrote:

davetherave wrote:ASQ> right now the Thrashers are just trying to (a) survive, (b) put a reasonable product on the ice (c) clean up the organization so that the team can move forward, (d) put new hockey men in place so Waddell can focus on executive and fiscal decisions.

Hence the Anderson and Dudley hirings.

So you're saying Waddell's poor hockey decisions are excused by the fact that the team is in a financial mess? Are the successes of Columbus' and Nashville's management supererogatory?

I'm not disagreeing with you that (a), (b), (c) and (d) need to happen. I'm just not sure he's the right man to do (a).

You're not reading my posts.

The hockey decisions are directly impacted by the ownership. Poor ownership equates to poor decisions.

Your comparisons with Columbus and Nashville are irrelevant, as the situations there have no resemblance to, nor do they have a bearing on, what takes place in Atlanta.

You keep looking at this as a hockey fan, and not from a business perspective.

So let's take Columbus, if you insist. How did they do under Doug McLean?