GM Hockey
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.
GM Hockey

You are not connected. Please login or register

Spezza For Thornton?

+12
jamvan
Cronie
SensGirl11
SensFan71
SeawaySensFan
Phoenix30
shabbs
Mojo
The Silfer Server
asq2
wprager
davetherave
16 posters

Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

Go down  Message [Page 4 of 5]

46Spezza For Thornton? - Page 4 Empty Re: Spezza For Thornton? Mon May 04, 2009 1:36 pm

Guest


Guest

jamvan wrote:
Neely4Life wrote:Thornton has a world jr, a world cup, a world championship, and an olympic appearance. Spezza has a better loss... with 2 world class wingers holding his hand.

Spezza has absolutly nothing on Thornton, nothing.

Thornton would also be counted on for a lot less here than he was in San Jose. The pressure is on other guys in Ottawa and a lot less on Thornton. The more I think about it the more I think its a perfect fit.

Everyone's excuse before that didnt want to trade Spezza was "we would have no legit number 1 center", well this would be one of the mark key guys in the game coming back who has won a Art Ross and a Hart trophy (something Spezza will NEVER do). IMO this is becoming more and more of a no brainer.
Can you tell me where to get that crystal ball your looking at? Since you can forsee the future so well, please give me the 6/49 winning numbers to please.

Haha, who is Spezza going to outperform all in one year? Malkin? Crosby? Ovechkin? Datsyuk? Kovulchuk? Thornton? Spezza wont ever lead the league in scoring hate to tell you that buddy, and if you think he is you might want to watch another team or other then the Sens, maybe even another sport.

Alfi is only going to be able to carry his lazy a$$ for so long.

47Spezza For Thornton? - Page 4 Empty Re: Spezza For Thornton? Mon May 04, 2009 1:37 pm

Guest


Guest

jamvan wrote:
Neely4Life wrote:
SensFan71 wrote:
Phoenix30 wrote:Spezza in 40 playoff games has a 0.975 points per game. In the last 4 years Spezza has played in 34 playoff games. 20 of which were during the Cup run

Thornton in 76 playoff games is a 0.697 points per game. In the last 4 years Thornton played in 41 games.

Take the numbers for what they are worth but in my orginal post indicated that I am sitting on the fence on this deal unless SJ offered up more like Couture.

Spezza is still younger and has more upside but moving him for a player like Thornton addresses a need while one of our younger players develop. At the same time it would get us out from under a big long term contract in 2 years versus 6. It would also be a win for SJ as it would give them a younger center that could grow with the team after Marleau's contract expires next summer.

I agree with your point of getting rid of a long term contract, but then say Thornton's contract is done, he signs somewhere else, then we are left with a void of a # 1 centre. do we have another guy that could step into that role. I think Regin is great, but will he be a # 1 guy, I don't know, we already know Spezz can do it and has done it. For that reason, I am like you, on the fence unless SJ sweetens the pot.

I dont think Spezza has proven he can be the number 1 center. He has shown he may be capable of it but Spezza has never shown he can be the guy to lead the charge. Until Spezza makes players around him better and not have his hands held by Heatley and Alfi, I really dont think he has proven he can be a long term number 1 center in the NHL. People will disagree with that for sure and I get that, but IMO Spezza is still a border line number 1 guy. His game is far too incomplete and way too many question marks about the guy to say he is a number 1 center IMHO.
SO leading the Sens in scoring back to back years shows nothing? Please void your membership to the SPezza hating club now!

Pierre Turgeon led a lot of teams in scoring throughout his career, and he is remembered for what? Being traded for Lafontaine?

48Spezza For Thornton? - Page 4 Empty Re: Spezza For Thornton? Mon May 04, 2009 1:45 pm

Guest


Guest

SensGirl11 wrote:

Spezza still has time on his side though. He's still a very young man who will learn. I've seen it in him, I've seen the drive in wanting to be a more complete player from him. He's had some really bad moments too, I will not deny that at all. But, I saw a massive change in him the year we went to the Cup. He was the most complete player I'd seen him be. But, again, he lost it in the following 2 years, 2 horrible seasons where everyone was bad. Coaching was obviously a problem, and he, Heatley and Alfie all lost a bit of their game. They weren't able to play the game they are used to playing, it was just a complete mess. Now, with Clouston coming in, it should really improve a lot of these players games. We've seen it with Foligno, Shannon, Kuba. Heatley, Spezza and Alfie still have some work to do to get back to what they were, I'm very confident it will happen this year.

Really, in the end, Spezza for Thornton is basically a player for player deal, with one of them very close to his prime and one not even close to the prime of his career yet. We will not see Thornton get better, but we should see Spezza get better. Maybe I'm seeing things with rose colored glasses, but I really don't think so. I think I would rather stay with the guy that has actually made it to a Final than someone who keeps getting knocked out year after year after year.

Thornton had some good guys to play with in SJ as well, they wouldn't have won the President's trophy if he didn't, so I think that argument is non-existent. He is the #1 Center afterall, a lot of the winning on a team has to do with the #1 center, that's where it all begins. If you don't have that, you probably won't be successful.

Spezza and Thornton are 4 years apart, and the way Thornton trains and works his "prime" could very well take him into his mid 30's. We didnt get Alfi's best until he was 33, 34 years old. Spezza may very well be going into his prime but he has been on a steady and steep decline since that cup run where he was owned by Anahiem. (Imagine Spezza playing them 6 times a year and 4 against Detroit, esssh).

I def think you are looking at it with rosed colours glasses which is fine, you believe in the guy and thats just a personal opinion that cant be faulted, I def dont. But when people say "well he lead the team in points" or "he is too young to deal" thats all BS. Put him in Atlanta, he can lead a last place team all he wants. Hell, if a team is bad enough you could put a anyone at center and call them a "number 1 center".

Thornton is, like it or not, the superior player and by a large margin. He is only 29 which is young when you consider how long the star players in this league in the last decade have played. Sakic, Yzerman, Jagr, so on, all of whom perfromed at elite levels well into their late 30's. If people want to compare Spezza with Yzerman, I would say Thornton is way more of a comparable and the motivation factor that Thornton would bring would be at an extreme level.

Spezza isnt motivated right now and his play shows it. He signed his enormous deal and his play has dropped. Thats not a good sign and with a NTC and Spezza steering the ship in Ottawa for the next 6 years given what we know about Spezza and this point, or more importantly what we dont know, is a scary thought.

49Spezza For Thornton? - Page 4 Empty Re: Spezza For Thornton? Mon May 04, 2009 2:18 pm

Phoenix30

Phoenix30
Veteran
Veteran

Here is something to consider with Thorntons contract up in 2 years does he take this latest playoff departure and use it to become even better in order to secure another decent contract.

Having 2 decent deep playoff runs instead of the 1 in a contract year can really help secure a nice new contract. If so and a deal was to occur then Ottawa could reap the rewards. In hindsight and based on what has happened over the past 2 years could Ottawa have over achieved leading up to the Cup run.

Murray has placed himself into a positon where he needs to decide to stick with the guys and hope they come through or if they falter he is in a real jam because of the NTC and NMC clauses, hence if its not Spezza moved to free up cash then who. Alfie since his NMC kicks in on July 1 as well, and I cant see that happening.

Taken from NHLSCAP.com


Daniel Alfredsson, OTT - NMC [starting July 1, 2009; does not appear to have a NTC in his current contract expiring 6/30/09]
Mike Fisher, OTT - NMC [NMC for 2008-09 to 2010-11, limited NTC for 2011-12 and 2012-13]
Dany Heatley, OTT - NMC
Filip Kuba, OTT - NTC
Chris Phillips, OTT - NTC
Jason Spezza, OTT - NTC [starting July 1, 2009]

50Spezza For Thornton? - Page 4 Empty Re: Spezza For Thornton? Mon May 04, 2009 2:22 pm

PTFlea

PTFlea
Co-Founder
Co-Founder

The long and the short of it all is - we have zero interest in Thornton. The way the Sharks would have zero interest in Spezza.

Of the two, only Spezza has stepped up when it counted the most - the NHL playoffs. I don't give a toss about World Junior wins, I care about the NHL playoffs. To which, Joe Thornton sucks. At least Spezza was amazing in that one year, what the heck has Thornton done?

In our pool, Thornton was taken after pretty much every single player on the Red Wings, every player on the Pens, every player on the Bs. I think he got chosen round about 50th overall. Rubbish. He has a ton of proving to do - and he can do it a long, long way from here thanks very much.

51Spezza For Thornton? - Page 4 Empty Re: Spezza For Thornton? Mon May 04, 2009 2:30 pm

Guest


Guest

Spezza and Heatley - minus 2 right now vs a decent team... shocking.

52Spezza For Thornton? - Page 4 Empty Re: Spezza For Thornton? Mon May 04, 2009 2:34 pm

PTFlea

PTFlea
Co-Founder
Co-Founder

Neely4Life wrote:Spezza and Heatley - minus 2 right now vs a decent team... shocking.

Who else is a minus 2? Weber? Hamhuis? Doughty? They don't feel like playing right now I would guess.

53Spezza For Thornton? - Page 4 Empty Re: Spezza For Thornton? Mon May 04, 2009 2:35 pm

davetherave

davetherave
All-Star
All-Star

Something everyone might want to bear in mind is that neither the NTC nor the NMC mean a player can't be traded.

The NTC means the player has the right to approve the trade or not...but ultimately even players with NTCs have been moved.

The NMC means they cannot be waived or sent to the minors without their consent.

None of these clauses preclude a trade, or in a more extreme scenario, buyout.

In terms of the viability of a Spezza-Thornton swap, the net impact on both teams goes beyond a statistical comparison of the players.

Endlessly slicing and dicing their relative strengths and weaknesses IMHO misses the point of such a potential transaction.

There are two reasons a deal like this might be considered.

One, from a GM's perspective, giving players a new start in a new environment--away from the often vitriolic criticism of media and fans--can give them a new reason to be motivated, thus giving them reasons in turn to raise their game.

Two, a 'blockbuster' deal is made usually to send a message to the entire team that management is prepared to make difficult decisions in order to get that team to raise its collective performance.

I see this as a potential win-win for the above two reasons.

54Spezza For Thornton? - Page 4 Empty Re: Spezza For Thornton? Mon May 04, 2009 2:37 pm

Guest


Guest

504Heater wrote:
Neely4Life wrote:Spezza and Heatley - minus 2 right now vs a decent team... shocking.

Who else is a minus 2? Weber? Hamhuis? Doughty? They don't feel like playing right now I would guess.

Just saying what a team that can compete with Canada can do, especially with those 2 at the helm. That 2nd goal was all on Heatley and Spezza too.

Anyways, just some food for thought, absolutly no real level of competitivness from either.

55Spezza For Thornton? - Page 4 Empty Re: Spezza For Thornton? Mon May 04, 2009 2:49 pm

Phoenix30

Phoenix30
Veteran
Veteran

davetherave wrote:Something everyone might want to bear in mind is that neither the NTC nor the NMC mean a player can't be traded.

The NTC means the player has the right to approve the trade or not...but ultimately even players with NTCs have been moved.

The NMC means they cannot be waived or sent to the minors without their consent.

None of these clauses preclude a trade, or in a more extreme scenario, buyout.

In terms of the viability of a Spezza-Thornton swap, the net impact on both teams goes beyond a statistical comparison of the players.

Endlessly slicing and dicing their relative strengths and weaknesses IMHO misses the point of such a potential transaction.

There are two reasons a deal like this might be considered.

One, from a GM's perspective, giving players a new start in a new environment--away from the often vitriolic criticism of media and fans--can give them a new reason to be motivated, thus giving them reasons in turn to raise their game.

Two, a 'blockbuster' deal is made usually to send a message to the entire team that management is prepared to make difficult decisions in order to get that team to raise its collective performance.

I see this as a potential win-win for the above two reasons.

Having a NTC or NMC doesn't stop the trade talk but it sure as heck makes it difficult complete one....Personally they shouldn't even be issued.

I agree it would send one heck of a message to the team that management isn't going to sit on the sidelines. I've got to say I was rather impressed that Thornton dropped the gloves right off the faceoff with Getzlaf. Too bad he didnt do it earlier in the series. After hearing the pro's and Cons of a deal with Spezza/Thornton, I'm still stuck on the fence if it were ever to occur unless more was included.

56Spezza For Thornton? - Page 4 Empty Re: Spezza For Thornton? Mon May 04, 2009 2:51 pm

Guest


Guest

Spezza and Regin/O'Brien for Thornton and Coture?

57Spezza For Thornton? - Page 4 Empty Re: Spezza For Thornton? Mon May 04, 2009 2:52 pm

PTFlea

PTFlea
Co-Founder
Co-Founder

Neely4Life wrote:Just saying what a team that can compete with Canada can do, especially with those 2 at the helm. That 2nd goal was all on Heatley and Spezza too.

Anyways, just some food for thought, absolutly no real level of competitivness from either.

Goal by....Spezza. :^^^^:

58Spezza For Thornton? - Page 4 Empty Re: Spezza For Thornton? Mon May 04, 2009 2:53 pm

Guest


Guest

Haha yeah, on the PP of course. Even strength they are getting diminated and were just taken off the ice in their own zone by Ruff.

If only the game ws played 5 on 4 for the Canadians haha.

59Spezza For Thornton? - Page 4 Empty Re: Spezza For Thornton? Mon May 04, 2009 2:57 pm

KidKarlsson

KidKarlsson
Rookie
Rookie

any link to live feed of the game?

60Spezza For Thornton? - Page 4 Empty Re: Spezza For Thornton? Mon May 04, 2009 2:57 pm

SensFan71


All-Star
All-Star

504Heater wrote:
Neely4Life wrote:Just saying what a team that can compete with Canada can do, especially with those 2 at the helm. That 2nd goal was all on Heatley and Spezza too.

Anyways, just some food for thought, absolutly no real level of competitivness from either.

Goal by....Spezza. :^^^^:

he he he is that karma? Laughing3

61Spezza For Thornton? - Page 4 Empty Re: Spezza For Thornton? Mon May 04, 2009 3:00 pm

Guest


Guest

If that minus turns into a plus, then thats karma.

Spezza's line was absolutly dominated that line. This isnt Belarus and again both Heatley and Spezza seem to think they have accomlished something by putting up tons of points in this tournament. Its not all about points and right now its showing.

62Spezza For Thornton? - Page 4 Empty Re: Spezza For Thornton? Mon May 04, 2009 3:05 pm

PTFlea

PTFlea
Co-Founder
Co-Founder

Fish12 wrote:any link to live feed of the game?

http://www.justin.tv/lugie/popout

63Spezza For Thornton? - Page 4 Empty Re: Spezza For Thornton? Mon May 04, 2009 3:11 pm

PTFlea

PTFlea
Co-Founder
Co-Founder

Laughing3 Fisher loves to cream guys from other teams, doesn't matter which country they represent.

Sponsored content



Back to top  Message [Page 4 of 5]

Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum