Spezza For Thornton?

SensGirl11 wrote:

Phoenix30 wrote:

SensGirl11 wrote:Without reading anything in this thread. HELLS NO! Thornton is NOT a guy I would EVER want on my team.

Why not.

I've never in my life seen a wose choker than Thornton. I would not touch that guy with a ten foot pole. He's amazing in the regular season, but when it comes down to the nitty gritty of the playoffs, he chokes. I've never seen anything like it. I don't think this guy has ever been to a Final, or even came close enough to smell a Final. He's damaged goods in the playoffs, and I don't know why. Spezza has already proven, even if for only one year, that he can do it in the playoffs. I will admit that Spezza needs to learn to work around playing against much tougher opponents (Anaheim) that can shut him down no problem, but he's young enough to learn. I won't give up on him. If Murray wants to give up on him, so be it. But, I wouldn't.

Thornton has a world cup, world jr, world championship, art ross, hart trophy, and he isnt even 30 yet. Say what you want about Thornton but he has played in the big games and has won. He has also proven he is one of the best players on the planet. I'll take a motivated, refreshed, new chance Thornton over the NTC, had everything handed to me Spezza.

Thornton has also played in the West with much better teams and played with maybe the worst captain in the league. Its not like the Sens had to go through Detroit, Anahiem, Vancouver, Calgary to get to the finals. Thornton obviously has a lot to prove come the playoffs but Spezza wouldnt even be a factor if he was out in the West, he would be absolutly eaten alive.

Neely4Life wrote:

SensGirl11 wrote:

Phoenix30 wrote:

SensGirl11 wrote:Without reading anything in this thread. HELLS NO! Thornton is NOT a guy I would EVER want on my team.

Why not.

I've never in my life seen a wose choker than Thornton. I would not touch that guy with a ten foot pole. He's amazing in the regular season, but when it comes down to the nitty gritty of the playoffs, he chokes. I've never seen anything like it. I don't think this guy has ever been to a Final, or even came close enough to smell a Final. He's damaged goods in the playoffs, and I don't know why. Spezza has already proven, even if for only one year, that he can do it in the playoffs. I will admit that Spezza needs to learn to work around playing against much tougher opponents (Anaheim) that can shut him down no problem, but he's young enough to learn. I won't give up on him. If Murray wants to give up on him, so be it. But, I wouldn't.

Thornton has a world cup, world jr, world championship, art ross, hart trophy, and he isnt even 30 yet. Say what you want about Thornton but he has played in the big games and has won. He has also proven he is one of the best players on the planet. I'll take a motivated, refreshed, new chance Thornton over the NTC, had everything handed to me Spezza.

Thornton has also played in the West with much better teams and played with maybe the worst captain in the league. Its not like the Sens had to go through Detroit, Anahiem, Vancouver, Calgary to get to the finals. Thornton obviously has a lot to prove come the playoffs but Spezza wouldnt even be a factor if he was out in the West, he would be absolutly eaten alive.

Who cares? Those aren't Stanley Cups. THAT is what matters in the NHL, not a bunch of World Championships...Spezza will probably get one of those this year too. Will THAT make him better? Playing against Belarus, Hungary, Latvia, France...I personally could care less about those championships, that's just me though. He has an Art Ross and a Hart, those are great accomplishments. Give Spezza time, he's got 5 years to go before he hits 30.

Thornton moved to the West what, 3 years ago? What has he accomplished? Getting knocked out of the playoffs in the 1st round every year? Not showing up when it counts? Experiencing the worst embarassement ever this year, I mean, it's really really really sad to win the President's Trophy, and losing in the 1st round. How is that a winner? Again, he's AWESOME KICK Donkey COOL in the regular season, but he's nothing in the playoffs. No deal for me.

Beside Thornton as a rookie, I dont think he ever failed to make the playoffs...

Winning those difference championships does prove something, it proves that he can play on a winning team and he can be a winner. I dont put a lot of stock into the WC, but the World Cup was the best of the best of the best in the world and Thornton came out on top playing a huge role. The World Jr (who Spezza had 3 cracks at) is also a fairly big deal. In the NHL itself, does it mean anything? No, not really. Does that mean the Russian teams of the 70's and 80's wernt world class because they didnt win the cup? Bottom line is they won somewhere along the line which does mean something.

Thornton achieved more than Spezza ever will, and he is hands down a better player. Thornton back in the East as wide open as it is, may very well be as scary as it gets for 14 other teams in the East.

Spezza in the West, 14 other teams are just waiting for the turn over and to lay him out.

Thornton is better than Spezza will ever be. Thornton is one of those once in a lifetime players who can truly change a game by himself and carry a team on his shoulders.

You can't pin playoff failure on one player, especially when he was one of the few who showed up late in the series.

Spezza in 40 playoff games has a 0.975 points per game. In the last 4 years Spezza has played in 34 playoff games. 20 of which were during the Cup run

Thornton in 76 playoff games is a 0.697 points per game. In the last 4 years Thornton played in 41 games.

Take the numbers for what they are worth but in my orginal post indicated that I am sitting on the fence on this deal unless SJ offered up more like Couture.

Spezza is still younger and has more upside but moving him for a player like Thornton addresses a need while one of our younger players develop. At the same time it would get us out from under a big long term contract in 2 years versus 6. It would also be a win for SJ as it would give them a younger center that could grow with the team after Marleau's contract expires next summer.

Phoenix30 wrote:Spezza in 40 playoff games has a 0.975 points per game. In the last 4 years Spezza has played in 34 playoff games. 20 of which were during the Cup run

Thornton in 76 playoff games is a 0.697 points per game. In the last 4 years Thornton played in 41 games.

Take the numbers for what they are worth but in my orginal post indicated that I am sitting on the fence on this deal unless SJ offered up more like Couture.

Spezza is still younger and has more upside but moving him for a player like Thornton addresses a need while one of our younger players develop. At the same time it would get us out from under a big long term contract in 2 years versus 6. It would also be a win for SJ as it would give them a younger center that could grow with the team after Marleau's contract expires next summer.

I agree with your point of getting rid of a long term contract, but then say Thornton's contract is done, he signs somewhere else, then we are left with a void of a # 1 centre. do we have another guy that could step into that role. I think Regin is great, but will he be a # 1 guy, I don't know, we already know Spezz can do it and has done it. For that reason, I am like you, on the fence unless SJ sweetens the pot.

There is no way Spezza's upside is more than Thornton's, how can it be? Thornton is a better player, more physical, more of a leader (as sad as that is), and is still considered a world class player. If your talking about age, well then sure, Spezza wins.

TGWTM is right, you cant blame everything on one player, but at the same time playoff failure has followed Thornton his whole career so far which is a problem and cant be ignored. But Thornton also plays with no nammers and makes them into ppg players, Spezza has to play with 2 world class players to even be productive on any level.

I also cant see a Thornton lead team missing the playoffs with players like Heatley, Fisher, Phillips, Alfi, A train surrounding him. I would have said the same about Spezza but hey, it happend.

SensFan71 wrote:

Phoenix30 wrote:Spezza in 40 playoff games has a 0.975 points per game. In the last 4 years Spezza has played in 34 playoff games. 20 of which were during the Cup run

Thornton in 76 playoff games is a 0.697 points per game. In the last 4 years Thornton played in 41 games.

Take the numbers for what they are worth but in my orginal post indicated that I am sitting on the fence on this deal unless SJ offered up more like Couture.

Spezza is still younger and has more upside but moving him for a player like Thornton addresses a need while one of our younger players develop. At the same time it would get us out from under a big long term contract in 2 years versus 6. It would also be a win for SJ as it would give them a younger center that could grow with the team after Marleau's contract expires next summer.

I agree with your point of getting rid of a long term contract, but then say Thornton's contract is done, he signs somewhere else, then we are left with a void of a # 1 centre. do we have another guy that could step into that role. I think Regin is great, but will he be a # 1 guy, I don't know, we already know Spezz can do it and has done it. For that reason, I am like you, on the fence unless SJ sweetens the pot.

I dont think Spezza has proven he can be the number 1 center. He has shown he may be capable of it but Spezza has never shown he can be the guy to lead the charge. Until Spezza makes players around him better and not have his hands held by Heatley and Alfi, I really dont think he has proven he can be a long term number 1 center in the NHL. People will disagree with that for sure and I get that, but IMO Spezza is still a border line number 1 guy. His game is far too incomplete and way too many question marks about the guy to say he is a number 1 center IMHO.

I for one believe if you are going to move Jason Spezza, don't do it for another high-priced forward. You might as well keep Spezza and when the cap comes down, the team will wallow along with rookies and has-beens + the big line.

Let's say they do that trade. Fine, his cap hit is only for 2 more years, as opposed to Spezza's 4. If Thorton inevitably ends up leaving in 2 years, then you have got nothing for him.

Trade him now only for a stud defenceman and an up and coming forward.

As usual, it's just my opinion. Just saying....

Neely4Life wrote:There is no way Spezza's upside is more than Thornton's, how can it be? Thornton is a better player, more physical, more of a leader (as sad as that is), and is still considered a world class player. If your talking about age, well then sure, Spezza wins.

TGWTM is right, you cant blame everything on one player, but at the same time playoff failure has followed Thornton his whole career so far which is a problem and cant be ignored. But Thornton also plays with no nammers and makes them into ppg players, Spezza has to play with 2 world class players to even be productive on any level.

I also cant see a Thornton lead team missing the playoffs with players like Heatley, Fisher, Phillips, Alfi, A train surrounding him. I would have said the same about Spezza but hey, it happend.

So, we're back to blaming it on one player then. You contradicted yourself here.

SensFan71 wrote:

Phoenix30 wrote:Spezza in 40 playoff games has a 0.975 points per game. In the last 4 years Spezza has played in 34 playoff games. 20 of which were during the Cup run

Thornton in 76 playoff games is a 0.697 points per game. In the last 4 years Thornton played in 41 games.

Take the numbers for what they are worth but in my orginal post indicated that I am sitting on the fence on this deal unless SJ offered up more like Couture.

Spezza is still younger and has more upside but moving him for a player like Thornton addresses a need while one of our younger players develop. At the same time it would get us out from under a big long term contract in 2 years versus 6. It would also be a win for SJ as it would give them a younger center that could grow with the team after Marleau's contract expires next summer.

I agree with your point of getting rid of a long term contract, but then say Thornton's contract is done, he signs somewhere else, then we are left with a void of a # 1 centre. do we have another guy that could step into that role. I think Regin is great, but will he be a # 1 guy, I don't know, we already know Spezz can do it and has done it. For that reason, I am like you, on the fence unless SJ sweetens the pot.

So I've thrown Couture as a sweatner. Is there anyone else who could be used without being overpayment that addresses both teams needs.

The Guy With The Mustache wrote:Thornton is better than Spezza will ever be. Thornton is one of those once in a lifetime players who can truly change a game by himself and carry a team on his shoulders.

You can't pin playoff failure on one player, especially when he was one of the few who showed up late in the series.

Thornton is not a once in a lifetime player IMO. He's a once in every two drafts player now. He cannot carry a team on his shoulders, he never could and right now in my books, he never will.

Thornton has a long, long way to go before he can cement himself as one of the upper echelon of centers (or players for that matter). It's great that he tried towards the end of the series, but it's simply not good enough. He needed to up the ante from the drop of the puck against Anaheim, but he and Marleau couldn't do it. The other top six players on SJ are all failures as well as of right now. Not one of them stepped up to the plate and did anything.

One of the big reasons Anaheim beat SJ aside from Hiller? Getzlaf is simply better than Thornton will ever be. Perry outplayed Marleau and Bobby Ryan outplayed Setaguchi and Clowe and Pavelski combined.

Thornton is a failure. Lucky for SJ they only have another 2 years of it. Unfortunately if Spezza doesn't learn to assert himself in the playoffs - or if we don't find the wingers to compensate for his less than stellar defensive play, we'll be in the same boat. But I wouldn't take an older version of Spezza via trade. I would run far, far away from it to be perfectly honest. At least Spezza has 5 years on Thornton to try to put it all together.

Neely4Life wrote:Thornton has a world jr, a world cup, a world championship, and an olympic appearance. Spezza has a better loss... with 2 world class wingers holding his hand.

Spezza has absolutly nothing on Thornton, nothing.

Thornton would also be counted on for a lot less here than he was in San Jose. The pressure is on other guys in Ottawa and a lot less on Thornton. The more I think about it the more I think its a perfect fit.

Everyone's excuse before that didnt want to trade Spezza was "we would have no legit number 1 center", well this would be one of the mark key guys in the game coming back who has won a Art Ross and a Hart trophy (something Spezza will NEVER do). IMO this is becoming more and more of a no brainer.

Can you tell me where to get that crystal ball your looking at? Since you can forsee the future so well, please give me the 6/49 winning numbers to please.

Neely4Life wrote:

SensFan71 wrote:

Phoenix30 wrote:Spezza in 40 playoff games has a 0.975 points per game. In the last 4 years Spezza has played in 34 playoff games. 20 of which were during the Cup run

Thornton in 76 playoff games is a 0.697 points per game. In the last 4 years Thornton played in 41 games.

Take the numbers for what they are worth but in my orginal post indicated that I am sitting on the fence on this deal unless SJ offered up more like Couture.

Spezza is still younger and has more upside but moving him for a player like Thornton addresses a need while one of our younger players develop. At the same time it would get us out from under a big long term contract in 2 years versus 6. It would also be a win for SJ as it would give them a younger center that could grow with the team after Marleau's contract expires next summer.

I agree with your point of getting rid of a long term contract, but then say Thornton's contract is done, he signs somewhere else, then we are left with a void of a # 1 centre. do we have another guy that could step into that role. I think Regin is great, but will he be a # 1 guy, I don't know, we already know Spezz can do it and has done it. For that reason, I am like you, on the fence unless SJ sweetens the pot.

I dont think Spezza has proven he can be the number 1 center. He has shown he may be capable of it but Spezza has never shown he can be the guy to lead the charge. Until Spezza makes players around him better and not have his hands held by Heatley and Alfi, I really dont think he has proven he can be a long term number 1 center in the NHL. People will disagree with that for sure and I get that, but IMO Spezza is still a border line number 1 guy. His game is far too incomplete and way too many question marks about the guy to say he is a number 1 center IMHO.

SO leading the Sens in scoring back to back years shows nothing? Please void your membership to the SPezza hating club now!

Neely4Life wrote:

SensFan71 wrote:

Phoenix30 wrote:Spezza in 40 playoff games has a 0.975 points per game. In the last 4 years Spezza has played in 34 playoff games. 20 of which were during the Cup run

Thornton in 76 playoff games is a 0.697 points per game. In the last 4 years Thornton played in 41 games.

Take the numbers for what they are worth but in my orginal post indicated that I am sitting on the fence on this deal unless SJ offered up more like Couture.

Spezza is still younger and has more upside but moving him for a player like Thornton addresses a need while one of our younger players develop. At the same time it would get us out from under a big long term contract in 2 years versus 6. It would also be a win for SJ as it would give them a younger center that could grow with the team after Marleau's contract expires next summer.

I agree with your point of getting rid of a long term contract, but then say Thornton's contract is done, he signs somewhere else, then we are left with a void of a # 1 centre. do we have another guy that could step into that role. I think Regin is great, but will he be a # 1 guy, I don't know, we already know Spezz can do it and has done it. For that reason, I am like you, on the fence unless SJ sweetens the pot.

I dont think Spezza has proven he can be the number 1 center. He has shown he may be capable of it but Spezza has never shown he can be the guy to lead the charge. Until Spezza makes players around him better and not have his hands held by Heatley and Alfi, I really dont think he has proven he can be a long term number 1 center in the NHL. People will disagree with that for sure and I get that, but IMO Spezza is still a border line number 1 guy. His game is far too incomplete and way too many question marks about the guy to say he is a number 1 center IMHO.

Spezza still has time on his side though. He's still a very young man who will learn. I've seen it in him, I've seen the drive in wanting to be a more complete player from him. He's had some really bad moments too, I will not deny that at all. But, I saw a massive change in him the year we went to the Cup. He was the most complete player I'd seen him be. But, again, he lost it in the following 2 years, 2 horrible seasons where everyone was bad. Coaching was obviously a problem, and he, Heatley and Alfie all lost a bit of their game. They weren't able to play the game they are used to playing, it was just a complete mess. Now, with Clouston coming in, it should really improve a lot of these players games. We've seen it with Foligno, Shannon, Kuba. Heatley, Spezza and Alfie still have some work to do to get back to what they were, I'm very confident it will happen this year.

Really, in the end, Spezza for Thornton is basically a player for player deal, with one of them very close to his prime and one not even close to the prime of his career yet. We will not see Thornton get better, but we should see Spezza get better. Maybe I'm seeing things with rose colored glasses, but I really don't think so. I think I would rather stay with the guy that has actually made it to a Final than someone who keeps getting knocked out year after year after year.

Thornton had some good guys to play with in SJ as well, they wouldn't have won the President's trophy if he didn't, so I think that argument is non-existent. He is the #1 Center afterall, a lot of the winning on a team has to do with the #1 center, that's where it all begins. If you don't have that, you probably won't be successful.

jamvan wrote:

Neely4Life wrote:Thornton has a world jr, a world cup, a world championship, and an olympic appearance. Spezza has a better loss... with 2 world class wingers holding his hand.

Spezza has absolutly nothing on Thornton, nothing.

Thornton would also be counted on for a lot less here than he was in San Jose. The pressure is on other guys in Ottawa and a lot less on Thornton. The more I think about it the more I think its a perfect fit.

Everyone's excuse before that didnt want to trade Spezza was "we would have no legit number 1 center", well this would be one of the mark key guys in the game coming back who has won a Art Ross and a Hart trophy (something Spezza will NEVER do). IMO this is becoming more and more of a no brainer.

Can you tell me where to get that crystal ball your looking at? Since you can forsee the future so well, please give me the 6/49 winning numbers to please.

Haha, who is Spezza going to outperform all in one year? Malkin? Crosby? Ovechkin? Datsyuk? Kovulchuk? Thornton? Spezza wont ever lead the league in scoring hate to tell you that buddy, and if you think he is you might want to watch another team or other then the Sens, maybe even another sport.

Alfi is only going to be able to carry his lazy a$$ for so long.

jamvan wrote:

Neely4Life wrote:

SensFan71 wrote:

Phoenix30 wrote:Spezza in 40 playoff games has a 0.975 points per game. In the last 4 years Spezza has played in 34 playoff games. 20 of which were during the Cup run

Thornton in 76 playoff games is a 0.697 points per game. In the last 4 years Thornton played in 41 games.

Take the numbers for what they are worth but in my orginal post indicated that I am sitting on the fence on this deal unless SJ offered up more like Couture.

Spezza is still younger and has more upside but moving him for a player like Thornton addresses a need while one of our younger players develop. At the same time it would get us out from under a big long term contract in 2 years versus 6. It would also be a win for SJ as it would give them a younger center that could grow with the team after Marleau's contract expires next summer.

I agree with your point of getting rid of a long term contract, but then say Thornton's contract is done, he signs somewhere else, then we are left with a void of a # 1 centre. do we have another guy that could step into that role. I think Regin is great, but will he be a # 1 guy, I don't know, we already know Spezz can do it and has done it. For that reason, I am like you, on the fence unless SJ sweetens the pot.

I dont think Spezza has proven he can be the number 1 center. He has shown he may be capable of it but Spezza has never shown he can be the guy to lead the charge. Until Spezza makes players around him better and not have his hands held by Heatley and Alfi, I really dont think he has proven he can be a long term number 1 center in the NHL. People will disagree with that for sure and I get that, but IMO Spezza is still a border line number 1 guy. His game is far too incomplete and way too many question marks about the guy to say he is a number 1 center IMHO.

SO leading the Sens in scoring back to back years shows nothing? Please void your membership to the SPezza hating club now!

Pierre Turgeon led a lot of teams in scoring throughout his career, and he is remembered for what? Being traded for Lafontaine?

SensGirl11 wrote:

Spezza still has time on his side though. He's still a very young man who will learn. I've seen it in him, I've seen the drive in wanting to be a more complete player from him. He's had some really bad moments too, I will not deny that at all. But, I saw a massive change in him the year we went to the Cup. He was the most complete player I'd seen him be. But, again, he lost it in the following 2 years, 2 horrible seasons where everyone was bad. Coaching was obviously a problem, and he, Heatley and Alfie all lost a bit of their game. They weren't able to play the game they are used to playing, it was just a complete mess. Now, with Clouston coming in, it should really improve a lot of these players games. We've seen it with Foligno, Shannon, Kuba. Heatley, Spezza and Alfie still have some work to do to get back to what they were, I'm very confident it will happen this year.

Really, in the end, Spezza for Thornton is basically a player for player deal, with one of them very close to his prime and one not even close to the prime of his career yet. We will not see Thornton get better, but we should see Spezza get better. Maybe I'm seeing things with rose colored glasses, but I really don't think so. I think I would rather stay with the guy that has actually made it to a Final than someone who keeps getting knocked out year after year after year.

Thornton had some good guys to play with in SJ as well, they wouldn't have won the President's trophy if he didn't, so I think that argument is non-existent. He is the #1 Center afterall, a lot of the winning on a team has to do with the #1 center, that's where it all begins. If you don't have that, you probably won't be successful.

Spezza and Thornton are 4 years apart, and the way Thornton trains and works his "prime" could very well take him into his mid 30's. We didnt get Alfi's best until he was 33, 34 years old. Spezza may very well be going into his prime but he has been on a steady and steep decline since that cup run where he was owned by Anahiem. (Imagine Spezza playing them 6 times a year and 4 against Detroit, esssh).

I def think you are looking at it with rosed colours glasses which is fine, you believe in the guy and thats just a personal opinion that cant be faulted, I def dont. But when people say "well he lead the team in points" or "he is too young to deal" thats all BS. Put him in Atlanta, he can lead a last place team all he wants. Hell, if a team is bad enough you could put a anyone at center and call them a "number 1 center".

Thornton is, like it or not, the superior player and by a large margin. He is only 29 which is young when you consider how long the star players in this league in the last decade have played. Sakic, Yzerman, Jagr, so on, all of whom perfromed at elite levels well into their late 30's. If people want to compare Spezza with Yzerman, I would say Thornton is way more of a comparable and the motivation factor that Thornton would bring would be at an extreme level.

Spezza isnt motivated right now and his play shows it. He signed his enormous deal and his play has dropped. Thats not a good sign and with a NTC and Spezza steering the ship in Ottawa for the next 6 years given what we know about Spezza and this point, or more importantly what we dont know, is a scary thought.