Spezza's Maturing

SeawaySensFan wrote:

504Heater wrote:Not this year, but he has what it takes to be one from here on out IMO. But again, this guy seems to bring it from time to time and give us all a glimmer. Let's hope he's starting to see the light (I think he is personally).

Bringing in Stevie Y would be the move that ensures Spezza's staying IMO.

I don't see glimmer, I see a player who is showing other GMs that he can put up points at will.

The team's future success is at stake here and waiting for Spezza to come around is too much of a gamble I'm afraid.

Chara walked, Redden walked Spezza could be the last movable chip we have to move in a looooong time. Time to cash in.

Well, you better cash in with a player guaranteed to be better than Spezza. That is easier said than done from our weak position this year.

beerandsens wrote:Well, you better cash in with a player guaranteed to be better than Spezza. That is easier said than done from our weak position this year.

Such guarantees never have and never will be part of any deal.

Sooner or later, teams will be asking us for our players. Not the other way around. Then the so-called weak bargaining position goes out the window.

SeawaySensFan wrote:

504Heater wrote:Not this year, but he has what it takes to be one from here on out IMO. But again, this guy seems to bring it from time to time and give us all a glimmer. Let's hope he's starting to see the light (I think he is personally).

Bringing in Stevie Y would be the move that ensures Spezza's staying IMO.

I don't see glimmer, I see a player who is showing other GMs that he can put up points at will.

The team's future success is at stake here and waiting for Spezza to come around is too much of a gamble I'm afraid.

Chara walked, Redden walked Spezza could be the last movable chip we have to move in a looooong time. Time to cash in.

Yup, its not like if we dont get rid of a huge contract the Sens will only hurt for 2, or 3 years possibly. This could literally turn into a decade of losing if the rebuild is put off for 3, 4, maybe 5 years. Add more time onto that for the actual rebuild as well.

So basically we could jsut waste Spezza's prime, waste Heatley's, waste the last years of Alfi's career and just go no where...

Again, you dont need to get rid of Spezza if you can get rid of Heatley, but one of the two have to go. If you;re a Spezza lover, better hope Heatley waives his NTC.

Neely4Life wrote:

504Heater wrote:

Neely4Life wrote:I disagree with basically all of this, but if you want to keep Spezza in Ottawa, then Heatley has to go. If that happens, then you can work with Spezza, if not, the economics make zero sense and the Sens are up the creek for a long time.

Its not that complicated. One of the 7 million dollar salaries has to go!

Basically...I've done the math a thousand times and this is the only reason I can see him going.

It's tough with the cap at 50 to have half your $$ in 4 guys - one of whom simply doesn't produce.

\

Ive said that for a very long time, but people think its bashing. They get rid of Heatley, then sure, work with him, but time is short, money is scarce, and Spezza hasnt improved over the last 3 years, like it or not. His comments and general attitude are also a huge concern.

If Heatley goes, then w/e, we will see what happens I guess.

Yes, the economics lean in that direction, but is there a way around it? I'm asking because even Washington has a bunch up money tied up at front, all though this is the last year they have all 4 forwards tying up $23M+ . If we unload Fisher (big IF) that might be sufficient, no?

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/cap-central/team.php?team=WAS

504Heater wrote:

Neely4Life wrote:I disagree with basically all of this, but if you want to keep Spezza in Ottawa, then Heatley has to go. If that happens, then you can work with Spezza, if not, the economics make zero sense and the Sens are up the creek for a long time.

Its not that complicated. One of the 7 million dollar salaries has to go!

Basically...I've done the math a thousand times and this is the only reason I can see him going.

It's tough with the cap at 50 to have half your $$ in 4 guys - one of whom simply doesn't produce.

lmao And you guys all thought we could afford Bouwmeester too....

Neely, I don't expect an objective POV from you on the Spezza subject, but if you don't think that he has grown as a player and as a man, then you're simply stuck with those blinders on. He is clearly well on his way to being an truly elite player and a leader.
There's no need to argue that statement with me, however, because - like you - no amount of disagreement is going to change my opinion. Its just Imo.

SeawaySensFan wrote:

beerandsens wrote:Well, you better cash in with a player guaranteed to be better than Spezza. That is easier said than done from our weak position this year.

Such guarantees never have and never will be part of any deal.

Sooner or later, teams will be asking us for our players. Not the other way around. Then the so-called weak bargaining position goes out the window.

So if you're not guaranteed to improve at the first line center position are you hoping to add more depth? Cap space? It's not like Spezza's a UFA next year so the Redden Chara thing is confusing me.

beerandsens wrote:
Yes, the economics lean in that direction, but is there a way around it? I'm asking because even Washington has a bunch up money tied up at front, all though this is the last year they have all 4 forwards tying up $23M+ . If we unload Fisher (big IF) that might be sufficient, no?

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/cap-central/team.php?team=WAS

Contraction, followed by the cap going back up. Every team is gonna have to deal with this - unless they have nothing good coming up the pipeline.

Good God, wait until Boston tries to re-negotiate with Kessel, Kracji (sp), Thomas, then Savard, Lucic, Wheeler and Chara. They lose half of those guys in a snap of the fingers.

"I didn't expect it to be this bad or this hard to win hockey games," said Spezza, who has frequently been the subject of trade rumours because of his inconsistent play. It just seems like it's a struggle for us to win every night. It's definitely a little bit frustrating and shocking."

That is not a statement from a leader or a guy who is maturing. Thats from yesterday. That comment is scary on a lot of different levels.

His CBC interview was disgusting as well.

cash wrote:lmao And you guys all thought we could afford Bouwmeester too....

Neely, I don't expect an objective POV from you on the Spezza subject, but if you don't think that he has grown as a player and as a man, then you're simply stuck with those blinders on. He is clearly well on his way to being an truly elite player and a leader.
There's no need to argue that statement with me, however, because - like you - no amount of disagreement is going to change my opinion. Its just Imo.

I don't have a problem having a substantial amount of salary tied up in 4 players, as long as at least one is a stud D-Man.

Dealing Spezza for cheaper, secondary scoring, blue chip prospects and a 1st rounder helps us achieve that goal.

Spezza may well be on his way to being a leader but the Ottawa Senators are not the team he will lead. We just don't have the time to wait.

Neely4Life wrote:
Again, you dont need to get rid of Spezza if you can get rid of Heatley, but one of the two have to go. If you;re a Spezza lover, better hope Heatley waives his NTC.

Here's hoping *crosses fingers, legs, arms, toes, eyes...*

This talk of waiting it out with Heatley is exactly how teams lose value for their players. The simple fact is that Heatley is too slow for the new NHL. He will always be able to put points up, but he will always be a liability.
If it wasn't for his damn NTC, I would trade him so fast his head would spin.
(And much like Redden - and even more so - he would find success somewhere else)

cash wrote:

Neely4Life wrote:
Again, you dont need to get rid of Spezza if you can get rid of Heatley, but one of the two have to go. If you;re a Spezza lover, better hope Heatley waives his NTC.

Here's hoping *crosses fingers, legs, arms, toes, eyes...*

This talk of waiting it out with Heatley is exactly how teams lose value for their players. The simple fact is that Heatley is too slow for the new NHL. He will always be able to put points up, but he will always be a liability.
If it wasn't for his damn NTC, I would trade him so fast his head would spin.
(And much like Redden - and even more so - he would find success somewhere else)

Redden? Success?

Wow.

And the fact remains that Heatley does have an NTC, Spezza does not.

It's not a matter of preference or talent or production, it's a matter of changing the makeup of the financial core of the player personnel.

SeawaySensFan wrote:

cash wrote:

Neely4Life wrote:
Again, you dont need to get rid of Spezza if you can get rid of Heatley, but one of the two have to go. If you;re a Spezza lover, better hope Heatley waives his NTC.

Here's hoping *crosses fingers, legs, arms, toes, eyes...*

This talk of waiting it out with Heatley is exactly how teams lose value for their players. The simple fact is that Heatley is too slow for the new NHL. He will always be able to put points up, but he will always be a liability.
If it wasn't for his damn NTC, I would trade him so fast his head would spin.
(And much like Redden - and even more so - he would find success somewhere else)

Redden? Success?

Wow.

And the fact remains that Heatley does have an NTC, Spezza does not.

It's not a matter of preference or talent or production, it's a matter of changing the makeup of the financial core of the player personnel.

I agree with that part of it, I just dont see who fills in as no. 1 center without reproducing the same financial problem over the few years it takes for our picks and blue chippers to become rostor players.

SeawaySensFan wrote:

cash wrote:lmao And you guys all thought we could afford Bouwmeester too....

Neely, I don't expect an objective POV from you on the Spezza subject, but if you don't think that he has grown as a player and as a man, then you're simply stuck with those blinders on. He is clearly well on his way to being an truly elite player and a leader.
There's no need to argue that statement with me, however, because - like you - no amount of disagreement is going to change my opinion. Its just Imo.

I don't have a problem having a substantial amount of salary tied up in 4 players, as long as at least one is a stud D-Man.

Dealing Spezza for cheaper, secondary scoring, blue chip prospects and a 1st rounder helps us achieve that goal.

Spezza may well be on his way to being a leader but the Ottawa Senators are not the team he will lead. We just don't have the time to wait.

Actually, if the supposed leaders on this team would act like it, we wouldn't have to wait. He shouldn't need to be a leader for at least two years, given the current core.
Spezza's job right now is to continue improving and help provide the team with a chance to win, while not being a detriment. In the calendar year of 2008, that wasn't quite the case, but he was definitely improving - it may have been in subtle ways, but it was definitely happening.
He appears to be maturing on pace to be a leader and a respectable man at an ideal time when a transition of power and authority on this team will be needed.
His whole demeanor has changed this year. No, it hasn't been consistent, but it has been vastly different.

As for your other point: It is almost unavoidable to have that much money tied up in 4-5 players in the new NHL...Obviously teams have a choice as to what positions those dollars will fill, but they can't really expect to hold onto players without it and have any success. Sooner or later, every team has to put that kind of money behind that few players.

Neely4Life wrote:I disagree with basically all of this, but if you want to keep Spezza in Ottawa, then Heatley has to go. If that happens, then you can work with Spezza, if not, the economics make zero sense and the Sens are up the creek for a long time.

Its not that complicated. One of the 7 million dollar salaries has to go!

I hear what you're saying in that we need to trim some large salary to be competitive, but Fisher is by far the guy (IMO) that needs to go. The money he makes doesn't come close to justifying the type of player he is. Maybe if he became a Brind'Amour type players I was hoping he would, it would be worth it, but he has just been slipping for the past two seasons. If he goes, we have the space to re-tool our team.

SeawaySensFan wrote:

cash wrote:

Neely4Life wrote:
Again, you dont need to get rid of Spezza if you can get rid of Heatley, but one of the two have to go. If you;re a Spezza lover, better hope Heatley waives his NTC.

Here's hoping *crosses fingers, legs, arms, toes, eyes...*

This talk of waiting it out with Heatley is exactly how teams lose value for their players. The simple fact is that Heatley is too slow for the new NHL. He will always be able to put points up, but he will always be a liability.
If it wasn't for his damn NTC, I would trade him so fast his head would spin.
(And much like Redden - and even more so - he would find success somewhere else)

Redden? Success?

Wow.

And the fact remains that Heatley does have an NTC, Spezza does not.

It's not a matter of preference or talent or production, it's a matter of changing the makeup of the financial core of the player personnel.

Yeah Redden was a bad example.

Regardless, trading on that basis is a ridiculously poor way of managing a team. Its that thought process that will drive this team into the dumps.
Force Heatley to waive. Thats the ticket.

Mojo wrote:

Neely4Life wrote:I disagree with basically all of this, but if you want to keep Spezza in Ottawa, then Heatley has to go. If that happens, then you can work with Spezza, if not, the economics make zero sense and the Sens are up the creek for a long time.

Its not that complicated. One of the 7 million dollar salaries has to go!

I hear what you're saying in that we need to trim some large salary to be competitive, but Fisher is by far the guy (IMO) that needs to go. The money he makes doesn't come close to justifying the type of player he is. Maybe if he became a Brind'Amour type players I was hoping he would, it would be worth it, but he has just been slipping for the past two seasons. If he goes, we have the space to re-tool our team.

Exactly, it's a far better situation if Fisher goes and we get another quality 3rd line Center or even someone who could be a true 2nd line center for the same $ or a little less. Rather than trade Spezza and hope someone else can come in and do the no. 1 C job for less than $7M.

beerandsens wrote:

Mojo wrote:

Neely4Life wrote:I disagree with basically all of this, but if you want to keep Spezza in Ottawa, then Heatley has to go. If that happens, then you can work with Spezza, if not, the economics make zero sense and the Sens are up the creek for a long time.

Its not that complicated. One of the 7 million dollar salaries has to go!

I hear what you're saying in that we need to trim some large salary to be competitive, but Fisher is by far the guy (IMO) that needs to go. The money he makes doesn't come close to justifying the type of player he is. Maybe if he became a Brind'Amour type players I was hoping he would, it would be worth it, but he has just been slipping for the past two seasons. If he goes, we have the space to re-tool our team.

Exactly, it's a far better situation if Fisher goes and we get another quality 3rd line Center or even someone who could be a true 2nd line center for the same $ or a little less. Rather than trade Spezza and hope someone else can come in and do the no. 1 C job for less than $7M.

Again: Trading a player who's playing as well as was expected, minus the point-production (which is a problem for every single offensive player on this team) is not the answer to this team's problems.
Few of you would actually argue that if we could put Heatley's nose for the net onto Fisher, he'd be one of the truly elite, all-around superstars in the game. Given the market for players today, he is absolutely worth what he is being paid and the idea of trading a player who actually cares and tries away from this team - and the belief that this is somehow an answer to what ails us - is absolutely ridiculous.

cash wrote:

Neely4Life wrote:
Again, you dont need to get rid of Spezza if you can get rid of Heatley, but one of the two have to go. If you;re a Spezza lover, better hope Heatley waives his NTC.

Here's hoping *crosses fingers, legs, arms, toes, eyes...*

This talk of waiting it out with Heatley is exactly how teams lose value for their players. The simple fact is that Heatley is too slow for the new NHL. He will always be able to put points up, but he will always be a liability.
If it wasn't for his damn NTC, I would trade him so fast his head would spin.
(And much like Redden - and even more so - he would find success somewhere else)

This has to be one of the most ridiculous statements I have seen in a while. Heatley has been doing pretty well in the "new NHL". He may not be the fastest skater, but he does what he gets payed for, putting up the points.

I haven't gone through every player, but from what I can tell he is third in goals since the "new NHL" started three and half years ago. Ovechkin has 190 goals and is +42, Kovalchuk has 160 goals and is -32, Heatley has 157 goals and is +93, Lecavalier has 143 goals and is -11, and Iginla has 142 goals and is +44.

Heatley may not have Havlat speed, but is has been doing alright over the past three and a half seasons.