In Defence of Spezza

anyways...I guess what I am trying to get at was that my initial point was that in my opinion I think that there is a possibility that our assessment of Spez's future might be wrong...and that he may indeed never live up to the likes of the elite...

I can completely see what you're saying here, since this is exactly how I felt and still feel about Meszaros.

I'm also starting to think we define elite differently. I would consider cream of the crop offensive creativity and skill elite qualities. Spezza has those. Examples of other aspects that he doesn't possess are dominating physical presence or unwaivering 100% effort. I don't think he'll ever be that guy. Those are good qualities, but I argue that they aren't the only ones that make a player an elite one.

Tukker wrote:

COLLAR UP wrote:

Tukker wrote:

COLLAR UP wrote:

Tukker wrote:

Neely4Life wrote:Spezza is not elite. Defend him all you want but you are only lying to yourself saying he is elite.

Lecailvier, Zettiberg, Malkin, Crosby, Datsyuk are elite. Spezza is no where near those guys.

did you every start to think that since 10 or so people are disagreeing with you, maybe you are incorrect, not us? or would that involve some humility?

Why does 10 against 1 make the 10 right? Maybe you all suffer from tunnel vision.

Really...Spezza elite...what does that make OV...Zetterberg...etc...super-elite?

Spez is good...great sure...but why is it 100% fact that he will turn out to be Yzerman or Sakic or Modano...why can it not be 50/50...where 50% chance exists that he will never reach that level of eliteness?

i never called him elite. he's definitely a top tier player, but he's not elite. I do how ever believe that Spezza is better than Heatley.

Tell that to Team Canada...I am sure they agree to...ha ha...

let me rephrase. I feel that Spezza may actually be a better overall player than Heatley. I realize I lost alot of you right there . I believe that Spezza's commitment to improving his defense may make him a better player than Heatley. Honestly, Heatley gets off with alot because of his obvious skill. Spezz gets harped on for every little thing he does. If he's getting alot of points, then he's not good defensively. If he works on his defense, then he's getting lazy on offense. I wouldnt want to be here either if I was him.

Well when Canada chooses the team then they will pick Spezza over Heatley, then your point will be proven. If Spezza is as good as you say he is he will have no problem adaptiing to the wing and playing a more defensive game.

beerandsens wrote:

anyways...I guess what I am trying to get at was that my initial point was that in my opinion I think that there is a possibility that our assessment of Spez's future might be wrong...and that he may indeed never live up to the likes of the elite...

I can completely see what you're saying here, since this is exactly how I felt and still feel about Meszaros.

I'm also starting to think we define elite differently. I would consider cream of the crop offensive creativity and skill elite qualities. Spezza has those. Examples of other aspects that he doesn't possess are dominating physical presence or unwaivering 100% effort. I don't think he'll ever be that guy. Those are good qualities, but I argue that they aren't the only ones that make a player an elite one.

fair enough...

Neely4Life wrote:

Tukker wrote:

COLLAR UP wrote:

Tukker wrote:

COLLAR UP wrote:

Tukker wrote:

Neely4Life wrote:Spezza is not elite. Defend him all you want but you are only lying to yourself saying he is elite.

Lecailvier, Zettiberg, Malkin, Crosby, Datsyuk are elite. Spezza is no where near those guys.

did you every start to think that since 10 or so people are disagreeing with you, maybe you are incorrect, not us? or would that involve some humility?

Why does 10 against 1 make the 10 right? Maybe you all suffer from tunnel vision.

Really...Spezza elite...what does that make OV...Zetterberg...etc...super-elite?

Spez is good...great sure...but why is it 100% fact that he will turn out to be Yzerman or Sakic or Modano...why can it not be 50/50...where 50% chance exists that he will never reach that level of eliteness?

i never called him elite. he's definitely a top tier player, but he's not elite. I do how ever believe that Spezza is better than Heatley.

Tell that to Team Canada...I am sure they agree to...ha ha...

let me rephrase. I feel that Spezza may actually be a better overall player than Heatley. I realize I lost alot of you right there . I believe that Spezza's commitment to improving his defense may make him a better player than Heatley. Honestly, Heatley gets off with alot because of his obvious skill. Spezz gets harped on for every little thing he does. If he's getting alot of points, then he's not good defensively. If he works on his defense, then he's getting lazy on offense. I wouldnt want to be here either if I was him.

Well when Canada chooses the team then they will pick Spezza over Heatley, then your point will be proven. If Spezza is as good as you say he is he will have no problem adaptiing to the wing and playing a more defensive game.

what if they pick both

beerandsens wrote:

anyways...I guess what I am trying to get at was that my initial point was that in my opinion I think that there is a possibility that our assessment of Spez's future might be wrong...and that he may indeed never live up to the likes of the elite...

I can completely see what you're saying here, since this is exactly how I felt and still feel about Meszaros.

I'm also starting to think we define elite differently. I would consider cream of the crop offensive creativity and skill elite qualities. Spezza has those. Examples of other aspects that he doesn't possess are dominating physical presence or unwaivering 100% effort. I don't think he'll ever be that guy. Those are good qualities, but I argue that they aren't the only ones that make a player an elite one.

No issue with that. I think Meszaros is over rated personally as well.

COLLAR UP wrote:
This is my point exactly.

Since I posted in this blog that I don't necessarily think Spezza should be compared to the likes of Yzerman...Modano et al...I have been getting torn a new Donkey...

Spezza is a talented centre...no doubt...yes...he was part of a team that went to the SCF...did he lead the team...hell no...Alfie led the team...and the group as a whole played amazing...incl. Spez...Heat...Fish...etc...

but why is it that when you or I bring up the possibility that Spezza will never develop into the Yzerman they dream of do we get lynched?

Is it not possible that the opinions shared by others could be as wrong as our? Could it just be that he will forever remain that guy who scores a lot but doesn't do much else?

And for all of you who have "witnessed" his improvements this year...sure he is dumping the puck in...and sure less drop passes...but have you seen him give up on the puck...have you seen him waltz his way back to the d-end while the rest of the team hustles their asses back...cause I have...

anyways...I guess what I am trying to get at was that my initial point was that in my opinion I think that there is a possibility that our assessment of Spez's future might be wrong...and that he may indeed never live up to the likes of the elite...

everyone says he is young...when does he stop being young...when can we say...ok...he is never going to be that guy??

Collar, I never had an issue if someone says Spezza does not compare to Yzerman, Sakic, et al. I do, however, have an issue when someone says he doesn't and never will, and the team will never win with him so we should trade him now for spare parts to help us later.

Do I want to trade Spezza? No, I think we will lose that trade. Do I think we have to consider it? Of course, if we didn't we'd be doing the team a disservice.

So it might come to that at some point, but that point is not yet. You ask at what point we stop saying he's still young and give up? Whay are we forgetting that this year is the first hiccup in an otherwise stellar (short) career? Last year was better than the year before -- it's not his fault the team, as a whole, stunk it up from the goal out. He was well on his way to a career year before he got injured, and even with the injury he managed excellent numbers across the board.

This year, is it really fair to say that he's alone? His point production has gone down the toilet. Not cincidentally, so has Heatley's and Alfie's. I keep seeing Spezza set up Heatley (or someone else) and no goal -- whose fault are those plays, since there have been plenty of them. His face offs have been going south lately -- that much is his problem to fix, no-one else's. His lazy penalties are very concerning as well, but last game he had one (the game before he had two, plus the roughing). Guess who else took a hooking call in the Islanders game -- Alfie. But when's the last time he did no-look pass at the blueline?

Everything's got to be looked at with perspective. He's a 25-year-old playmaking centre that's having a bad year along with the rest of his team, but in previous years he was on an up-slope (development wise) and we don't have a crystal ball (well, most of us don't) to see what will happen next year.

wprager wrote:

COLLAR UP wrote:
This is my point exactly.

Since I posted in this blog that I don't necessarily think Spezza should be compared to the likes of Yzerman...Modano et al...I have been getting torn a new Donkey...

Spezza is a talented centre...no doubt...yes...he was part of a team that went to the SCF...did he lead the team...hell no...Alfie led the team...and the group as a whole played amazing...incl. Spez...Heat...Fish...etc...

but why is it that when you or I bring up the possibility that Spezza will never develop into the Yzerman they dream of do we get lynched?

Is it not possible that the opinions shared by others could be as wrong as our? Could it just be that he will forever remain that guy who scores a lot but doesn't do much else?

And for all of you who have "witnessed" his improvements this year...sure he is dumping the puck in...and sure less drop passes...but have you seen him give up on the puck...have you seen him waltz his way back to the d-end while the rest of the team hustles their asses back...cause I have...

anyways...I guess what I am trying to get at was that my initial point was that in my opinion I think that there is a possibility that our assessment of Spez's future might be wrong...and that he may indeed never live up to the likes of the elite...

everyone says he is young...when does he stop being young...when can we say...ok...he is never going to be that guy??

Collar, I never had an issue if someone says Spezza does not compare to Yzerman, Sakic, et al. I do, however, have an issue when someone says he doesn't and never will, and the team will never win with him so we should trade him now for spare parts to help us later.

Do I want to trade Spezza? No, I think we will lose that trade. Do I think we have to consider it? Of course, if we didn't we'd be doing the team a disservice.

So it might come to that at some point, but that point is not yet. You ask at what point we stop saying he's still young and give up? Whay are we forgetting that this year is the first hiccup in an otherwise stellar (short) career? Last year was better than the year before -- it's not his fault the team, as a whole, stunk it up from the goal out. He was well on his way to a career year before he got injured, and even with the injury he managed excellent numbers across the board.

This year, is it really fair to say that he's alone? His point production has gone down the toilet. Not cincidentally, so has Heatley's and Alfie's. I keep seeing Spezza set up Heatley (or someone else) and no goal -- whose fault are those plays, since there have been plenty of them. His face offs have been going south lately -- that much is his problem to fix, no-one else's. His lazy penalties are very concerning as well, but last game he had one (the game before he had two, plus the roughing). Guess who else took a hooking call in the Islanders game -- Alfie. But when's the last time he did no-look pass at the blueline?

Everything's got to be looked at with perspective. He's a 25-year-old playmaking centre that's having a bad year along with the rest of his team, but in previous years he was on an up-slope (development wise) and we don't have a crystal ball (well, most of us don't) to see what will happen next year.

that pretty much sums up my point...

we don't have a crystal ball...so how can you all claim that it is 100% fact that he will turn out to be a hockey god?

Why...when Nelly or I put out the possibility that he may not reach that elite level, do we get torn new asses like it's everyone's favourite pass-time...

I have said over and over that he is very talented...and to judge him on the team's current play would not be fair...I just cannot stand it when people assume he is going to be the Next One...the Be ALL END ALL of hockey in Ottawa...

he may not...

will he always be good and pot 80 to 100 points...probably...but will he lead his team the way that Stevie...Joe...Sakic...Mario...etc did...WE DO NOT KNOW...

I have started to write this post 3 times, then erase it. I struggle, because I have never been a fair-weather fan of the Sens. I have stuck by them from the very get-go, through those absolute Dung seasons at the beginning, through to their emergence as a power-house contender.

This team did it the right way. They built through the draft and through intelligent trades. You could not help but get excited by their progress. You knew that it was destiny that they would be in the Cup Finals. And sure enough, they did.

Now, that having been said, how may teams have won multiple cups in the last while. I do believe Detroit is the only one.

The sad truth is that a team builds for a Stanley Cup run, usually cannot afford to keep the core group of players to continue onto a dynasty (Detroit is lucky, they drafted or traded for exceptional players who are very young. They will encounter parity once they try to sign Franzen, Zetterberg and Hossa).

What I don't understand, is why Murray will not come to terms with the fact that Ottawa is entering a rebuilding phase. I personally don't think you would here a word of complaint if Murray just came out and said, the Ottawa Senators are now in a rebuilding phase, please be patient. I for one, would be there, watching and waiting to see him work his magic. Yes, I think Murray should be the one to do the tinkering.


So, we sit here, frustrated with inactivity. Their play has been ......less than stellar since January of last year. People preach patience, but that's a year of waiting.

For the record. I do not think Spezza is the problem. I just don't believe he's part of the solution.

COLLAR UP wrote:

wprager wrote:

COLLAR UP wrote:
This is my point exactly.

Since I posted in this blog that I don't necessarily think Spezza should be compared to the likes of Yzerman...Modano et al...I have been getting torn a new Donkey...

Spezza is a talented centre...no doubt...yes...he was part of a team that went to the SCF...did he lead the team...hell no...Alfie led the team...and the group as a whole played amazing...incl. Spez...Heat...Fish...etc...

but why is it that when you or I bring up the possibility that Spezza will never develop into the Yzerman they dream of do we get lynched?

Is it not possible that the opinions shared by others could be as wrong as our? Could it just be that he will forever remain that guy who scores a lot but doesn't do much else?

And for all of you who have "witnessed" his improvements this year...sure he is dumping the puck in...and sure less drop passes...but have you seen him give up on the puck...have you seen him waltz his way back to the d-end while the rest of the team hustles their asses back...cause I have...

anyways...I guess what I am trying to get at was that my initial point was that in my opinion I think that there is a possibility that our assessment of Spez's future might be wrong...and that he may indeed never live up to the likes of the elite...

everyone says he is young...when does he stop being young...when can we say...ok...he is never going to be that guy??

Collar, I never had an issue if someone says Spezza does not compare to Yzerman, Sakic, et al. I do, however, have an issue when someone says he doesn't and never will, and the team will never win with him so we should trade him now for spare parts to help us later.

Do I want to trade Spezza? No, I think we will lose that trade. Do I think we have to consider it? Of course, if we didn't we'd be doing the team a disservice.

So it might come to that at some point, but that point is not yet. You ask at what point we stop saying he's still young and give up? Whay are we forgetting that this year is the first hiccup in an otherwise stellar (short) career? Last year was better than the year before -- it's not his fault the team, as a whole, stunk it up from the goal out. He was well on his way to a career year before he got injured, and even with the injury he managed excellent numbers across the board.

This year, is it really fair to say that he's alone? His point production has gone down the toilet. Not cincidentally, so has Heatley's and Alfie's. I keep seeing Spezza set up Heatley (or someone else) and no goal -- whose fault are those plays, since there have been plenty of them. His face offs have been going south lately -- that much is his problem to fix, no-one else's. His lazy penalties are very concerning as well, but last game he had one (the game before he had two, plus the roughing). Guess who else took a hooking call in the Islanders game -- Alfie. But when's the last time he did no-look pass at the blueline?

Everything's got to be looked at with perspective. He's a 25-year-old playmaking centre that's having a bad year along with the rest of his team, but in previous years he was on an up-slope (development wise) and we don't have a crystal ball (well, most of us don't) to see what will happen next year.

that pretty much sums up my point...

we don't have a crystal ball...so how can you all claim that it is 100% fact that he will turn out to be a hockey god?

Why...when Nelly or I put out the possibility that he may not reach that elite level, do we get torn new asses like it's everyone's favourite pass-time...

I have said over and over that he is very talented...and to judge him on the team's current play would not be fair...I just cannot stand it when people assume he is going to be the Next One...the Be ALL END ALL of hockey in Ottawa...

he may not...

will he always be good and pot 80 to 100 points...probably...but will he lead his team the way that Stevie...Joe...Sakic...Mario...etc did...WE DO NOT KNOW...

Thats exactly right, we dont know. I can still have the opinion that this team will not win with him as the go to guy based on what I have seen and the Sens would be a better team if they committ to a defense-first system where they can build the blueline and work their way out.

I still think Heatley is a much better player away from Spezza and a better player over all, as is Alfi. Spezza has still not shown he can play away from either of those two on his own and the catters to that. He has to show a lot more than he has this year and the previous years.

People say "well his best years are ahead", how do you really know that? Were Lindros' best years ahead of him when he was the Hart in 95? He didnt come close to repeating that season even without injuries.

Spezza has to become a lot harder to play against in the both ends of the ice, meaning if he doesnt have the puck you work your Donkey off going to get it back. He has to be more patient and not force everything he does, he has to learn how to chanel his frustrations in a positive manner to help the team and elevate his game. Can he do that in 60 games? No way. Can he do that in 2 years? Maybe. Will he ever do that? Who knows. Fact of the matter is its 60 games left until Murray makes a final decision on him and so far this year when Spezza has had the chance to show everyone what he is made of, he has failed.

beedub wrote:I have started to write this post 3 times, then erase it. I struggle, because I have never been a fair-weather fan of the Sens. I have stuck by them from the very get-go, through those absolute Dung seasons at the beginning, through to their emergence as a power-house contender.

This team did it the right way. They built through the draft and through intelligent trades. You could not help but get excited by their progress. You knew that it was destiny that they would be in the Cup Finals. And sure enough, they did.

Now, that having been said, how may teams have won multiple cups in the last while. I do believe Detroit is the only one.

The sad truth is that a team builds for a Stanley Cup run, usually cannot afford to keep the core group of players to continue onto a dynasty (Detroit is lucky, they drafted or traded for exceptional players who are very young. They will encounter parity once they try to sign Franzen, Zetterberg and Hossa).

What I don't understand, is why Murray will not come to terms with the fact that Ottawa is entering a rebuilding phase. I personally don't think you would here a word of complaint if Murray just came out and said, the Ottawa Senators are now in a rebuilding phase, please be patient. I for one, would be there, watching and waiting to see him work his magic. Yes, I think Murray should be the one to do the tinkering.


So, we sit here, frustrated with inactivity. Their play has been ......less than stellar since January of last year. People preach patience, but that's a year of waiting.

For the record. I do not think Spezza is the problem. I just don't believe he's part of the solution.

Good way of putting it, and that is how I feel about Spezza as well. So saying that, is it smart to have a 7 million dollar player that will not solve anything going forward. Is it smart to have 24 mil invested in 4 players up front while our back end struggles in a large way. Defensivly we are fine but there is a lot more to a defense group then just playing well in their own zone.

Neely4Life wrote:

NO! It has nothing to do with it just being Spezza, Ive said it for about a month now. It has to do with the CAP, the commitment to D this team needs, and what this team needs to look like going forward.

People draw their own conclussions to what I say and think its trashing him, kinda sad really. But I could actually get my little cousin to put together some drawings for you and draw it out since you really dont get anything that Ive said period.

LOL. Is it lonely up there in your stately castle, looking down on all us peons?

You've got to be kidding me.

rooneypoo wrote:

Neely4Life wrote:

NO! It has nothing to do with it just being Spezza, Ive said it for about a month now. It has to do with the CAP, the commitment to D this team needs, and what this team needs to look like going forward.

People draw their own conclussions to what I say and think its trashing him, kinda sad really. But I could actually get my little cousin to put together some drawings for you and draw it out since you really dont get anything that Ive said period.

LOL. Is it lonely up there in your stately castle, looking down on all us peons?

You've got to be kidding me.

Nope, there are a few people up here with me.

Neely4Life wrote:
Heatley defently has some blame, but everyone knows what he can do when he has the puck and playing with those two, you dont see it.

Maybe Heatley should come off that line and you leave Alfi up there. It still hanst been tried and I wonder why it hasnt.

Now, this I agree with. And have been saying for ages.

Spezza needs a sniper on his wing. Heater needs to be the guy on his line so he can have more time with the puck. Leave Alfie with Spezza so Spez still has someone who can score on a consistent basis, and put Heater with Fisher, someone who can get him the puck out of corners.

Don't see why we don't try something like this. It's not like the big line is ripping it up right now, anyway.

Neely4Life wrote:

Nope, there are a few people up here with me.

That's kingly of you. I suppose all sovereigns have advisors and a court, after all.

rooneypoo wrote:

Neely4Life wrote:
Heatley defently has some blame, but everyone knows what he can do when he has the puck and playing with those two, you dont see it.

Maybe Heatley should come off that line and you leave Alfi up there. It still hanst been tried and I wonder why it hasnt.

Now, this I agree with. And have been saying for ages.

Spezza needs a sniper on his wing. Heater needs to be the guy on his line so he can have more time with the puck. Leave Alfie with Spezza so Spez still has someone who can score on a consistent basis, and put Heater with Fisher, someone who can get him the puck out of corners.

Don't see why we don't try something like this. It's not like the big line is ripping it up right now, anyway.

Sounds like a good idea Rooney...

I do wish this team could acquire a PMD and a top-sixer...oh it's nice to dream...

rooneypoo wrote:

Neely4Life wrote:

Nope, there are a few people up here with me.

That's kingly of you. I suppose all sovereigns have advisors and a court, after all.

Correct.

Neely4Life wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

Neely4Life wrote:

Nope, there are a few people up here with me.

That's kingly of you. I suppose all sovereigns have advisors and a court, after all.

Correct.

I'm glad where clear on where you stand here in terms of your opinion of yourself. It explains a lot.

rooneypoo wrote:

Neely4Life wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

Neely4Life wrote:

Nope, there are a few people up here with me.

That's kingly of you. I suppose all sovereigns have advisors and a court, after all.

Correct.

I'm glad where clear on where you stand here in terms of your opinion of yourself. It explains a lot.

As long as we are on the same page.