In Defence of Spezza

504Heater wrote:

B B B B Bird is the Word wrote:Just wondering.....is this team playing defense first because management/coaches feel that we don't have the tools to play the offense first/free wheeling style we used to? Or, are they insisting on using our players to play a system that they are not capable (capalble is too strong a word) of playing? I have a feeling that Hartsburg and Paddock are/were trying to put a square peg in a round hole. If we were to aquire a pmd, I would really like to see the management go back to letting the guys fire away, and play the style of hockey they are best at. (Spezza would benefit - hence this post in this thread!)

I know what you mean...I kind of feel the same way, but Hartsburg has brought in a defensive system that sees us first in the East for goals allowed. The law of averages says that we start scoring soon enough - and when we do, this team could be a lot like the Cup run team.

Problem is, we don't have a second line right now.

I think that the problem is that our high flying offense that scores when the want to is being limited by the new defense first system. The law of averages right now is that the scorers on our team will continue to play defense first, and their points will continue to be mediocre

B B B B Bird is the Word wrote:

504Heater wrote:

B B B B Bird is the Word wrote:Just wondering.....is this team playing defense first because management/coaches feel that we don't have the tools to play the offense first/free wheeling style we used to? Or, are they insisting on using our players to play a system that they are not capable (capalble is too strong a word) of playing? I have a feeling that Hartsburg and Paddock are/were trying to put a square peg in a round hole. If we were to aquire a pmd, I would really like to see the management go back to letting the guys fire away, and play the style of hockey they are best at. (Spezza would benefit - hence this post in this thread!)

I know what you mean...I kind of feel the same way, but Hartsburg has brought in a defensive system that sees us first in the East for goals allowed. The law of averages says that we start scoring soon enough - and when we do, this team could be a lot like the Cup run team.

Problem is, we don't have a second line right now.

I think that the problem is that our high flying offense that scores when the want to is being limited by the new defense first system. The law of averages right now is that the scorers on our team will continue to play defense first, and their points will continue to be mediocre

Well I wish we could go back to the high flying days, but I don't think it will happen, but man do I miss those free pizza nights! LOL

Neely4Life wrote:

lol, ohhhh, clever. I dont dismiss other peoples opinions, I dismiss ignorance and a complete lack of knowledge for the game, a lot like yourself.

Even if that is true, then why is it that I don't ruffle everyone's feathers like you do? Look over this last thread. You've got attacks coming in left and right, and that's NOT solely because of what you're saying, but also HOW you're saying it. It's all about how you conduct yourself and the level of respect you show to other people's opinions. More so than your positions on any topic, it's your abrasive attitude and (by your own admission) your high sense of yourself that repulses people.

Spezza is not an elite player, Spezza is an elite player. You have one opinion, other people have other opinions. You announce the former position as an "opinion" and claim to respect people's "opinions," too, and yet people who think the latter always end up being described by you as being somehow deluded, mistaken, misinformed. That's being dogmatic, not being respectful of other opinions.

Try acting as if the people you're talking to aren't complete idiots and you'll find that the level of satisfaction you get from your conversations will increase dramatically. And it will be the same for us. You clearly have a lot of hockey knowledge and a love for the game. Communicate those ideas in a more respectful manner and we'll all be the better for it.

Neely4Life wrote:

B B B B Bird is the Word wrote:

Neely4Life wrote:

B B B B Bird is the Word wrote:Just wondering.....is this team playing defense first because management/coaches feel that we don't have the tools to play the offense first/free wheeling style we used to? Or, are they insisting on using our players to play a system that they are not capable (capalble is too strong a word) of playing? I have a feeling that Hartsburg and Paddock are/were trying to put a square peg in a round hole. If we were to aquire a pmd, I would really like to see the management go back to letting the guys fire away, and play the style of hockey they are best at. (Spezza would benefit - hence this post in this thread!)

Spezza has to learn how to play at both ends of the rink. His offense will obviously fall off with more defenisive responsibility but it should fall of to the point where he is held scoreless in 1/2 the games he plays in.

Give him a bit more freedom sure, but what happens in those tight checking games when the team needs him to backcheck hard, play responsibe, etc. He has to learn how to do it at some point, PMD or not.

I'm not sure I want Spezza's points to drop off - isn't that the problem right now? Is anyone crediting Spezza's new defensive efforts for the teams low goals against? I would rather keep Spezza's points up - sure he can chip in with some backchecking, but if this system the team is playing causes his point totals to suffer, I'm not sure I like it.

Its stems from a lot of things, but the big one is not cheating and not leaving the zone early. There are 20 other guys on that team that depend on the system to win, a questionable goalie (I lvoe Auld, but what would he be playing like without the system). You cant base your whole team around 1 guy.

when that guy gets you 90+ points per year, and helps other to rack up the points as well, you should probably think about adjusting your system to allow him to be successful in doing what he does best - easier said than done obviously

rooneypoo wrote:

Neely4Life wrote:

lol, ohhhh, clever. I dont dismiss other peoples opinions, I dismiss ignorance and a complete lack of knowledge for the game, a lot like yourself.

Even if that is true, then why is it that I don't ruffle everyone's feathers like you do? Look over this last thread. You've got attacks coming in left and right, and that's NOT solely because of what you're saying, but also HOW you're saying it. It's all about how you conduct yourself and the level of respect you show to other people's opinions. More so than your positions on any topic, it's your abrasive attitude and (by your own admission) your high sense of yourself that repulses people.

Spezza is not an elite player, Spezza is an elite player. You have one opinion, other people have other opinions. You announce the former position as an "opinion" and claim to respect people's "opinions," too, and yet people who think the latter always end up being described by you as being somehow deluded, mistaken, misinformed. That's being dogmatic, not being respectful of other opinions.

Try acting as if the people you're talking to aren't complete idiots and you'll find that the level of satisfaction you get from your conversations will increase dramatically. And it will be the same for us. You clearly have a lot of hockey knowledge and a love for the game. Communicate those ideas in a more respectful manner and we'll all be the better for it.

Fair enough, and I do believe I have an extremely high knoweldge of the game, Im not going to pretend I dont, and I do listen to other peoples opinions, but when they are based souly on what they wish to believe and show a total lack of knoweldge and only see black and white, its impossible to try and get people to see the other side of the arguement, especially on this site.

I have good discussions with people like Cap'n, Cronie, and they dont always agree with what I say, but for some reason we discuss things from all points and not a lot of disrespectful things are said, if ever.

People going to one extreme to defend something instead of seeing one side of the arugment then presenting facts and opinions based on their knowledge and discussing it. There is no grey area with some people, and if they want to go to the extreme thats fine, I'll shoot down the extreme side of things from all angles. Its 95% grey, very little black and white.

Zetterberg and Datsyuk have been on that defensive-learning process before. They were criticized every playoff for a few years but management sticked with them. People are surprised those players are 7th rounders, but really, they have benefited from a perfect development and that's why they are elite today. Do you guys really think Murray expected Spezza and Heatley to be Selke-trophy contenders after 20 games?(Under Hartsburg) The NTC until the end of the season is not a time frame gamble. He will give Spezza more time. Losing Spezza is not the end of the world, but trading him today would be the dumbest thing ever because clearly, 1/ We would be screwed (Murray said other GMS are trying to take advantage of the opportunity) 2/ We still have time until his NTC becomes effective 3/ No time to panic, no one is expecting a cup this year and a good draft position would be the result of tanking.

rooneypoo wrote:
Even if that is true, then why is it that I don't ruffle everyone's feathers like you do? Look over this last thread. You've got attacks coming in left and right, and that's NOT solely because of what you're saying, but also HOW you're saying it. It's all about how you conduct yourself and the level of respect you show to other people's opinions. More so than your positions on any topic, it's your abrasive attitude and (by your own admission) your high sense of yourself that repulses people.

Spezza is not an elite player, Spezza is an elite player. You have one opinion, other people have other opinions. You announce the former position as an "opinion" and claim to respect people's "opinions," too, and yet people who think the latter always end up being described by you as being somehow deluded, mistaken, misinformed. That's being dogmatic, not being respectful of other opinions.

Try acting as if the people you're talking to aren't complete idiots and you'll find that the level of satisfaction you get from your conversations will increase dramatically. And it will be the same for us. You clearly have a lot of hockey knowledge and a love for the game. Communicate those ideas in a more respectful manner and we'll all be the better for it.

I rarely have anything negative to say about people, but this post is bang on. It's not the argument, it's the way the argument is presented - and the fact that no matter how we all feel, it always reverts to "I'm right - end of story" that gets really frustrating. At least someone had the stones to tell it like it is.

B B B B Bird is the Word wrote:

Neely4Life wrote:

B B B B Bird is the Word wrote:

Neely4Life wrote:

B B B B Bird is the Word wrote:Just wondering.....is this team playing defense first because management/coaches feel that we don't have the tools to play the offense first/free wheeling style we used to? Or, are they insisting on using our players to play a system that they are not capable (capalble is too strong a word) of playing? I have a feeling that Hartsburg and Paddock are/were trying to put a square peg in a round hole. If we were to aquire a pmd, I would really like to see the management go back to letting the guys fire away, and play the style of hockey they are best at. (Spezza would benefit - hence this post in this thread!)

Spezza has to learn how to play at both ends of the rink. His offense will obviously fall off with more defenisive responsibility but it should fall of to the point where he is held scoreless in 1/2 the games he plays in.

Give him a bit more freedom sure, but what happens in those tight checking games when the team needs him to backcheck hard, play responsibe, etc. He has to learn how to do it at some point, PMD or not.

I'm not sure I want Spezza's points to drop off - isn't that the problem right now? Is anyone crediting Spezza's new defensive efforts for the teams low goals against? I would rather keep Spezza's points up - sure he can chip in with some backchecking, but if this system the team is playing causes his point totals to suffer, I'm not sure I like it.

Its stems from a lot of things, but the big one is not cheating and not leaving the zone early. There are 20 other guys on that team that depend on the system to win, a questionable goalie (I lvoe Auld, but what would he be playing like without the system). You cant base your whole team around 1 guy.

when that guy gets you 90+ points per year, and helps other to rack up the points as well, you should probably think about adjusting your system to allow him to be successful in doing what he does best - easier said than done obviously

Thats what they did last year and teams learned to shut them down, and very effectivly I might add. Didnt work last year, why would it work now? We have stayed competitive because of a strong defensive system and good goaltending, despite our lack of scoring.

Doesnt matter how much freedom some guys get, on this team that freedome has been abused so you have to take it back. Its like dealing with a 5 year old in some cases, you give a little, give a little, and boom they try and take it all, then its back to sqaure one. There has to be a median to things and right now the players on this team for the most part of proven they cant be responsible enough to have the freedome of some of the other players in this league.

Sorry for nit-picking, but we are second behind Boston (by 2 goals) and we have to play another two games. Expect us to be 4 behind after those two games.

And how much of that great defensive play and how much Auld? Pierre brought that point up this morning and I agree.

504Heater wrote:

B B B B Bird is the Word wrote:Just wondering.....is this team playing defense first because management/coaches feel that we don't have the tools to play the offense first/free wheeling style we used to? Or, are they insisting on using our players to play a system that they are not capable (capalble is too strong a word) of playing? I have a feeling that Hartsburg and Paddock are/were trying to put a square peg in a round hole. If we were to aquire a pmd, I would really like to see the management go back to letting the guys fire away, and play the style of hockey they are best at. (Spezza would benefit - hence this post in this thread!)

I know what you mean...I kind of feel the same way, but Hartsburg has brought in a defensive system that sees us first in the East for goals allowed. The law of averages says that we start scoring soon enough - and when we do, this team could be a lot like the Cup run team.

Problem is, we don't have a second line right now.

marakh wrote:Zetterberg and Datsyuk have been on that defensive-learning process before. They were criticized every playoff for a few years but management sticked with them. People are surprised those players are 7th rounders, but really, they have benefited from a perfect development and that's why they are elite today. Do you guys really think Murray expected Spezza and Heatley to be Selke-trophy contenders after 20 games?(Under Hartsburg) The NTC until the end of the season is not a time frame gamble. He will give Spezza more time. Losing Spezza is not the end of the world, but trading him today would be the dumbest thing ever because clearly, 1/ We would be screwed (Murray said other GMS are trying to take advantage of the opportunity) 2/ We still have time until his NTC becomes effective 3/ No time to panic, no one is expecting a cup this year and a good draft position would be the result of tanking.

Amen. I remember a few years back sitting in a playoff pool on draft day, and nobody wanted to touch those two until the middle rounds, because they were seen in the same light as the "Sedin Sisters" when it came to playoffs. Things have changed.

Read what was being said about Alfie two years ago.

Are any of you old enough to have seen Mario when he was just starting out, 2-3 years in the league? May dad got tickets to go see the Pens play the Habs at the old Forum, and those were some great seats. Jean Beliveau was sitting a few rows *behind*us. My first impression of seing Mario live was "What a goal-suck!" He spent most of his time sitting at the center ice line (those were the days) waiting for a breakaway pass. He never backchecked, and he alwasy coasted back to his own zone. An why not, since he was stopping at the red line anyway, he'd have a couple of extra seconds before his team-mates had any chance of recovering the puck and sending it back to him at centre ice. When did Mario become Super? Certainly not in that game. And he is lucky the game wasn't called the way it is now, because he could lead the league in lazy penalties.

wprager wrote:

marakh wrote:Zetterberg and Datsyuk have been on that defensive-learning process before. They were criticized every playoff for a few years but management sticked with them. People are surprised those players are 7th rounders, but really, they have benefited from a perfect development and that's why they are elite today. Do you guys really think Murray expected Spezza and Heatley to be Selke-trophy contenders after 20 games?(Under Hartsburg) The NTC until the end of the season is not a time frame gamble. He will give Spezza more time. Losing Spezza is not the end of the world, but trading him today would be the dumbest thing ever because clearly, 1/ We would be screwed (Murray said other GMS are trying to take advantage of the opportunity) 2/ We still have time until his NTC becomes effective 3/ No time to panic, no one is expecting a cup this year and a good draft position would be the result of tanking.

Amen. I remember a few years back sitting in a playoff pool on draft day, and nobody wanted to touch those two until the middle rounds, because they were seen in the same light as the "Sedin Sisters" when it came to playoffs. Things have changed.

Read what was being said about Alfie two years ago.

Are any of you old enough to have seen Mario when he was just starting out, 2-3 years in the league? May dad got tickets to go see the Pens play the Habs at the old Forum, and those were some great seats. Jean Beliveau was sitting a few rows *behind*us. My first impression of seing Mario live was "What a goal-suck!" He spent most of his time sitting at the center ice line (those were the days) waiting for a breakaway pass. He never backchecked, and he alwasy coasted back to his own zone. An why not, since he was stopping at the red line anyway, he'd have a couple of extra seconds before his team-mates had any chance of recovering the puck and sending it back to him at centre ice. When did Mario become Super? Certainly not in that game. And he is lucky the game wasn't called the way it is now, because he could lead the league in lazy penalties.

I saw Brett Hull one time at a Can USA game (in Hamilton I think). Man, that guy was a floater. I was young at the time, and couldn't believe he was just hanging out at the far blue line waiting for a pass. Spezza will come around, my hope is that coaches are going to find a way to help his D game while allowing the O to cruise.
I don't want another grinder on our team.

b b b bird bird bird b b bird is the word b b b bird bird bird b b bird is the word. I don't know why but it took until yesterday to figure out your handle dude. Nice Family Guy reference.

Cap'n Clutch wrote:b b b bird bird bird b b bird is the word b b b bird bird bird b b bird is the word. I don't know why but it took until yesterday to figure out your handle dude. Nice Family Guy reference.

It was on just this past Sunday. I started watching it again and my wife says "It's a repeat, isn't it? Why are you watching it?"

You can guess what my reply was

Cap'n Clutch wrote:b b b bird bird bird b b bird is the word b b b bird bird bird b b bird is the word. I don't know why but it took until yesterday to figure out your handle dude. Nice Family Guy reference.

because you are slow...lol...I kid...

hey Clutch...didn't you know?...that the Bird is the Word...

Ba ba ba bird is the word...I said a ba ba ba the bird is the word...

everybody knows the bird is the word...

Cap'n Clutch wrote:b b b bird bird bird b b bird is the word b b b bird bird bird b b bird is the word. I don't know why but it took until yesterday to figure out your handle dude. Nice Family Guy reference.

thanks Clutch, didn't know if anyone would catch on or not. Funniest episode ever. Yeah, I watched it again this past Sunday too.....my wife just rolls her eyes.

COLLAR UP wrote:hey Clutch...didn't you know?...that the Bird is the Word...

Ba ba ba bird is the word...I said a ba ba ba the bird is the word...

everybody knows the bird is the word...

It's in your head now isn't it?

wprager wrote:

Cap'n Clutch wrote:b b b bird bird bird b b bird is the word b b b bird bird bird b b bird is the word. I don't know why but it took until yesterday to figure out your handle dude. Nice Family Guy reference.

It was on just this past Sunday. I started watching it again and my wife says "It's a repeat, isn't it? Why are you watching it?"

You can guess what my reply was

LOL.. That's hilarious, I got asked the same question and my reply was probably the same!