Some trade value reality

wprager wrote:

Aetherial wrote:Not trolling here... but some reality is needed I think.

I am seeing trade suggestions like Vermette + 2nd for Horton? (edit: misquote on my oroginal post) ... financial reasons being part of that equation.

I even saw Vermette and Fisher for Horton and Bouwmeester (admittedly PKC seemed to know he was being "optimistic")

But seriously guys...

Vermette 26, Cap: 2.763, Career NHL .442 PPG +/- +17
Fisher 28, Cap: 4.2, Career NHL .508 PPG +/- +33

Ponikarovsky 28, Cap: 2.105, Career NHL .478 PPG +/- +48
Antropov 28, Cap: 2.5, Career NHL .559 PPG +/- +63

If I came on here and suggested Ponikarovsky and Antropov for Bouwmeester and Horton, I would get laughed off of this board. You know I would.

Yet, by the numbers, I wouldn't trade Ponikarovsky and Antropov for Fisher and Vermette.

The problem I think is that you dont realize that Vermette may be trade bait but not for a first line player, forward or D, and Fisher... well I think it is time people accepted that he is WAY overpaid for his production. If I am Jacques Martin both of these guys don't get me either Horton or Bouwmeester.

If Ottawa needs a shake-up, and they do, they aren't going to do it by dumping overpaid underperforming players for 1st line players from other teams... Leafs fans have been ridiculed for suggestions no worse than these ones for years!!

I'm a bit late to the party but I'll just say what probably has already been said (haven't had time to read yet).

Fisher and Vermette never got a chance to play with Sundin on a regular basis.

Fisher brings tons of heart that rubs off and makes others compete.

Vermette could be top-five in the league at faceoffs if he was given a regular stint at centre.

Both Fisher and Vermette kill penalties and do it very well.

marakh wrote:

wprager wrote:

Aetherial wrote:Not trolling here... but some reality is needed I think.

I am seeing trade suggestions like Vermette + 2nd for Horton? (edit: misquote on my oroginal post) ... financial reasons being part of that equation.

I even saw Vermette and Fisher for Horton and Bouwmeester (admittedly PKC seemed to know he was being "optimistic")

But seriously guys...

Vermette 26, Cap: 2.763, Career NHL .442 PPG +/- +17
Fisher 28, Cap: 4.2, Career NHL .508 PPG +/- +33

Ponikarovsky 28, Cap: 2.105, Career NHL .478 PPG +/- +48
Antropov 28, Cap: 2.5, Career NHL .559 PPG +/- +63

If I came on here and suggested Ponikarovsky and Antropov for Bouwmeester and Horton, I would get laughed off of this board. You know I would.

Yet, by the numbers, I wouldn't trade Ponikarovsky and Antropov for Fisher and Vermette.

The problem I think is that you dont realize that Vermette may be trade bait but not for a first line player, forward or D, and Fisher... well I think it is time people accepted that he is WAY overpaid for his production. If I am Jacques Martin both of these guys don't get me either Horton or Bouwmeester.

If Ottawa needs a shake-up, and they do, they aren't going to do it by dumping overpaid underperforming players for 1st line players from other teams... Leafs fans have been ridiculed for suggestions no worse than these ones for years!!

I'm a bit late to the party but I'll just say what probably has already been said (haven't had time to read yet).

Fisher and Vermette never got a chance to play with Sundin on a regular basis.

Fisher brings tons of heart that rubs off and makes others compete.

Vermette could be top-five in the league at faceoffs if he was given a regular stint at centre.

Both Fisher and Vermette kill penalties and do it very well.

Isn't vermette already 3rd in FO?

Acrobat wrote:Wouldn't Spezza be a better draft-day trade?
He's a known commodity - send him plus a mid-range prospect out, and take a high-end first rounder back (plus maybe a servicable player or two) - then try to swap two of the firsts for a top-five pick.

cash wrote:

Acrobat wrote:Wouldn't Spezza be a better draft-day trade?
He's a known commodity - send him plus a mid-range prospect out, and take a high-end first rounder back (plus maybe a servicable player or two) - then try to swap two of the firsts for a top-five pick.

I know I as all over the trade Spezza idea, but if we were to full-out rebuild, wouldn't it be best to keep our 26 year old 1st ine center? wouldn't it be best to get all we can for players like Heatley, Alfredsson, Fisher, Phillips (get them all to waive) Smith, Kuba, Kelly, Vermette, Auld, McAmmond, Neil, and Schubert? Then build around our youth? Would a big three of Spezza, Hedman, Karlsson not be a better long-term solution than the current big three?

Imo if we're full-out rebuilding, then Spezza is - ironically - the last player we should be trading.

cash wrote:
I know I as all over the trade Spezza idea, but if we were to full-out rebuild, wouldn't it be best to keep our 26 year old 1st ine center? wouldn't it be best to get all we can for players like Heatley, Alfredsson, Fisher, Phillips (get them all to waive) Smith, Kuba, Kelly, Vermette, Auld, McAmmond, Neil, and Schubert? Then build around our youth? Would a big three of Spezza, Hedman, Karlsson not be a better long-term solution than the current big three?

Imo if we're full-out rebuilding, then Spezza is - ironically - the last player we should be trading.

PKC wrote:

cash wrote:
I know I as all over the trade Spezza idea, but if we were to full-out rebuild, wouldn't it be best to keep our 26 year old 1st ine center? wouldn't it be best to get all we can for players like Heatley, Alfredsson, Fisher, Phillips (get them all to waive) Smith, Kuba, Kelly, Vermette, Auld, McAmmond, Neil, and Schubert? Then build around our youth? Would a big three of Spezza, Hedman, Karlsson not be a better long-term solution than the current big three?

Imo if we're full-out rebuilding, then Spezza is - ironically - the last player we should be trading.

Surely you jest.

asq2 wrote:

PKC wrote:

cash wrote:
I know I as all over the trade Spezza idea, but if we were to full-out rebuild, wouldn't it be best to keep our 26 year old 1st ine center? wouldn't it be best to get all we can for players like Heatley, Alfredsson, Fisher, Phillips (get them all to waive) Smith, Kuba, Kelly, Vermette, Auld, McAmmond, Neil, and Schubert? Then build around our youth? Would a big three of Spezza, Hedman, Karlsson not be a better long-term solution than the current big three?

Imo if we're full-out rebuilding, then Spezza is - ironically - the last player we should be trading.

Surely you jest.

In a full re-build, the players with the best age/potential combination should be the ones you keep, and apart maybe from Karlsson there isn't a player in the organization with a better combination of that than Spezza.

I'd trade him in a full re-build, but I wouldn't only trade Spezza. Guys like Heatley, Kuba, perhaps even Phillips would be gone. Alfredsson would have the right to decide his fate (as does, I guess, Heater since he has a NTC).

I'd aim for Hedman and maybe even Cowen in this draft, and then Taylor Hall or Kirill Kabanov in the next one.

Neely4Life wrote:

asq2 wrote:

PKC wrote:

cash wrote:
I know I as all over the trade Spezza idea, but if we were to full-out rebuild, wouldn't it be best to keep our 26 year old 1st ine center? wouldn't it be best to get all we can for players like Heatley, Alfredsson, Fisher, Phillips (get them all to waive) Smith, Kuba, Kelly, Vermette, Auld, McAmmond, Neil, and Schubert? Then build around our youth? Would a big three of Spezza, Hedman, Karlsson not be a better long-term solution than the current big three?

Imo if we're full-out rebuilding, then Spezza is - ironically - the last player we should be trading.

Surely you jest.

In a full re-build, the players with the best age/potential combination should be the ones you keep, and apart maybe from Karlsson there isn't a player in the organization with a better combination of that than Spezza.

I'd trade him in a full re-build, but I wouldn't only trade Spezza. Guys like Heatley, Kuba, perhaps even Phillips would be gone. Alfredsson would have the right to decide his fate (as does, I guess, Heater since he has a NTC).

I'd aim for Hedman and maybe even Cowen in this draft, and then Taylor Hall or Kirill Kabanov in the next one.

Young guys still need some guidance, and a full rebuild would require some vets here. Having no leadership or a lack of it is exactly why Ottawa is in a tough spot now with a young team.

That would be making the same mistake twice.

asq2 wrote:

Neely4Life wrote:

asq2 wrote:

PKC wrote:

cash wrote:
I know I as all over the trade Spezza idea, but if we were to full-out rebuild, wouldn't it be best to keep our 26 year old 1st ine center? wouldn't it be best to get all we can for players like Heatley, Alfredsson, Fisher, Phillips (get them all to waive) Smith, Kuba, Kelly, Vermette, Auld, McAmmond, Neil, and Schubert? Then build around our youth? Would a big three of Spezza, Hedman, Karlsson not be a better long-term solution than the current big three?

Imo if we're full-out rebuilding, then Spezza is - ironically - the last player we should be trading.

Surely you jest.

In a full re-build, the players with the best age/potential combination should be the ones you keep, and apart maybe from Karlsson there isn't a player in the organization with a better combination of that than Spezza.

I'd trade him in a full re-build, but I wouldn't only trade Spezza. Guys like Heatley, Kuba, perhaps even Phillips would be gone. Alfredsson would have the right to decide his fate (as does, I guess, Heater since he has a NTC).

I'd aim for Hedman and maybe even Cowen in this draft, and then Taylor Hall or Kirill Kabanov in the next one.

Young guys still need some guidance, and a full rebuild would require some vets here. Having no leadership or a lack of it is exactly why Ottawa is in a tough spot now with a young team.

That would be making the same mistake twice.

I didn't say get rid of all the old guys.

The thing is, though, if you want to get new, elite talent into the orgnization, you're probably going to have to lose to do it.

I'd ideally keep Alfredsson, court Ohlund etc. as examples, but guys like Heatley and others can go.

Basically, my point is I wouldn't just trade Spezza.

wprager wrote:

Aetherial wrote:Not trolling here... but some reality is needed I think.

I am seeing trade suggestions like Vermette + 2nd for Horton? (edit: misquote on my oroginal post) ... financial reasons being part of that equation.

I even saw Vermette and Fisher for Horton and Bouwmeester (admittedly PKC seemed to know he was being "optimistic")

But seriously guys...

Vermette 26, Cap: 2.763, Career NHL .442 PPG +/- +17
Fisher 28, Cap: 4.2, Career NHL .508 PPG +/- +33

Ponikarovsky 28, Cap: 2.105, Career NHL .478 PPG +/- +48
Antropov 28, Cap: 2.5, Career NHL .559 PPG +/- +63

If I came on here and suggested Ponikarovsky and Antropov for Bouwmeester and Horton, I would get laughed off of this board. You know I would.

Yet, by the numbers, I wouldn't trade Ponikarovsky and Antropov for Fisher and Vermette.

The problem I think is that you dont realize that Vermette may be trade bait but not for a first line player, forward or D, and Fisher... well I think it is time people accepted that he is WAY overpaid for his production. If I am Jacques Martin both of these guys don't get me either Horton or Bouwmeester.

If Ottawa needs a shake-up, and they do, they aren't going to do it by dumping overpaid underperforming players for 1st line players from other teams... Leafs fans have been ridiculed for suggestions no worse than these ones for years!!

I'm a bit late to the party but I'll just say what probably has already been said (haven't had time to read yet).

Fisher and Vermette never got a chance to play with Sundin on a regular basis.

Fisher brings tons of heart that rubs off and makes others compete.

Vermette could be top-five in the league at faceoffs if he was given a regular stint at centre.

Both Fisher and Vermette kill penalties and do it very well.

MurderOnIce wrote:
Fair enough though. Aetherial has some valid points... Although I would happily not trade Vermette and Fisher for Annie and her Pony. Vermette has always had potential meaning he hasn't done anything so unless JM really does have a man crush on him he ain't worth much. Fisher on the other hand I would disagree with. He is more of a Gary Roberts type who is always in demand. There are 29 other GMs that would put him in their line-up immediately.

Cap'n Clutch wrote:I will just say that if it's true that Horton has said he'll retire before playing another season with the Panthers then his value is not going to be as high as his point production and first line potential would indicate.

Aetherial wrote:

Cap'n Clutch wrote:I will just say that if it's true that Horton has said he'll retire before playing another season with the Panthers then his value is not going to be as high as his point production and first line potential would indicate.

I can see your point here, but if he is shopped, his *value* is going to be determined by what the other guy is going to pay... regardless of what Horton said.

In other words, he won't go cheap because a team has the Panthers over a barrel in discussions. He'll cost something significant because he would be very much in demand on the open market.