GAME DAY: Minnesota Wild @ Ottawa Senators :: 7:30pm ET :: Wed. Nov. 20th, 2013

I give up. There's no talking with you sometimes. Of course veterans are available, it all depends on what you're willing to do to get them and it also depends on what teams feel they're on the outside looking in and want picks.

Buffalo would move some guys, Edmonton would probably think about making some moves - and on and on.

If Florida called and asked for Anderson and Spezza - and offered a good package, Murray would be a challenged for not thinking about it seriously.

I'll tell you what you can do with your Anderson for Dubnyk and a 2nd idea: shove it where the sun don't shine. The day we take a piece of Dung goalie making over 3.2 million is the day pigs fly across Ottawa. Forget it, bad idea anyway.

SpezDispenser wrote:I give up.  There's no talking with you sometimes.  Of course veterans are available, it all depends on what you're willing to do to get them and it also depends on what teams feel they're on the outside looking in and want picks.

Buffalo would move some guys, Edmonton would probably think about making some moves - and on and on.  

If Florida called and asked for Anderson and Spezza - and offered a good package, Murray would be a challenged for not thinking about it seriously.

There's no talking to me because I live in a reality world? lol. Oh really? What vets in Edmonton or Buffalo (that are available) are going to come into Ottawa's top 4 on the blueline or into Ottawa's top 6? Sure you could grab Havlat, Flieshmann, someone of that nature to plug into the top 6 for a little while, those guys are not hard to find. Defense, lol, you're kidding yourself if you can find a vet that's anything better than a #6, 7.

You know what, show me ONE D man over 30 that's available that would slid into a top 4 role in Ottawa, just one. Florida isn't going to move Campbell, Buffalo isn't going to move Ehrhoff, you know why? They are top 4 d men, lol.

SpezDispenser wrote:I'll tell you what you can do with your Anderson for Dubnyk and a 2nd idea:  shove it where the sun don't shine.  The day we take a piece of Dung goalie making over 3.2 million is the day pigs fly across Ottawa.  Forget it, bad idea anyway.

Makes sense because Ottawa is playing one every night right now.  At least Dubnyk would only be the backup lol.

Honestly man, you are living in a fantasy world right now.

NEELY wrote:

asq2 wrote:

NEELY wrote:

asq2 wrote:I miss Chris Kelly.

Don't think the Sens are missing a Chris Kelly right now and even then it looks like Grant is a Chris Kelly in the making.

Eh he's a hard-worker, defensively responsible, and more importantly a leader (rotating A on Boston, former BSens captain). One of the Sens' biggest problems this year IMO has been the absence of any discernible fore-check. A lot of that relates to the inability of most of the D squad to move the puck forward, but I think it also has to do with the forwards lacking energy, motivation, and confidence -- which Kelly as a leader and example would help provide.

I'm not saying he'd singlehandedly save our season, but that's the kind of character-y, veteran, defensively-responsible player we need to be accumulating. The offensive talent on the team is sufficient, but they can't get much done if the team as a whole can't establish a consistent forecheck.

Oh, for sure in that respect, the team is dying for anything resembling a vet presence in the dressing room and on the ice.  I think the mix is wrong right now though and they need to run with the group that has a future in Ottawa and that's Ryan, Turris, Karlsson, Lehner.  Might be young but those are the players that are getting the job done.

As I wrote above I just think no matter what it's a good thing to have veterans in the line-up. Even in a rebuild so long as they're not totally stealing opportunities from a core young player I think they provide a lot of benefits. But the problem is you have to have veterans like Alfie or Kelly who are still credible NHL players who provide a positive impact when they're on the ice. One of Edmonton's many, many problems IMO is they are relying on Smyth to fill this role but he's just not good enough a player to be a mentor any more. Same goes for Phillips in Ottawa IMO. We do have Methot and to a lesser extent Neil who I think are the right kind of characters in the room -- and Ryan, frankly -- but we could do with a lot more, like you said.

People are talking about getting a guy like Hemsky or Perron as if that's going to change things. IMO that kind of player will fold under pressure like a lot of our guys currently are. Between Ryan, Spezza, Turris, MacArthur, Zibanejad, Conacher, Michalek (kind of), etc. we have as much talent up-front as we've had since probably 2008 at least. We don't need another player who can make a toe-drag, we need players who can imbue the players we already have with confidence, who can play defensively responsible hockey in the bottom-6, and who can get the whole forward core motivated and on the forecheck. Would a guy like Kelly do that single-handedly? No, but it would get the ball rolling IMO.

Now obviously the team's most pressing need from an individual perspective is a PMD to take minutes from Karlsson, who is not confident right now and getting waaaaaay too much responsibility. But a good one is not so easy to find these days and would cost an arm and a leg. I would welcome a Del Zotto trade depending on the cost just to see if he could have an impact. But otherwise (or in addition) I think we need to bear in mind the importance of veteran leadership.

As for blowing it up, it might be the right call in a hypothetical world but I just can't see it happening. First, because a rebuilding season is a tough sell to fans when you don't have your own 1st round pick (we can't do standing watching or watch prospect highlight videos). Second, because we are close to the cap floor anyway so we wouldn't cut salary for Melnyk and would probably bring fewer fans to the rink without a name like Spezza. Third, because we can throw money at Ryan (I hope) but to keep him around I think we need to make it seem likely that we'll be competitive quickly. Fourth, because Spezza has a NTC and was just named captain and I think things would have to get much worse before that wouldn't look bad to the rest of the league and our own players to force him out.

So a Chris Kelly-type acquisition I think is a little more realistic. Although what teams currently want to give up a veteran presence who is also a valuable player I'm not sure. Perhaps we'll have to wait a little longer.

asq2 wrote:

NEELY wrote:

asq2 wrote:

NEELY wrote:

asq2 wrote:I miss Chris Kelly.

Don't think the Sens are missing a Chris Kelly right now and even then it looks like Grant is a Chris Kelly in the making.

Eh he's a hard-worker, defensively responsible, and more importantly a leader (rotating A on Boston, former BSens captain). One of the Sens' biggest problems this year IMO has been the absence of any discernible fore-check. A lot of that relates to the inability of most of the D squad to move the puck forward, but I think it also has to do with the forwards lacking energy, motivation, and confidence -- which Kelly as a leader and example would help provide.

I'm not saying he'd singlehandedly save our season, but that's the kind of character-y, veteran, defensively-responsible player we need to be accumulating. The offensive talent on the team is sufficient, but they can't get much done if the team as a whole can't establish a consistent forecheck.

Oh, for sure in that respect, the team is dying for anything resembling a vet presence in the dressing room and on the ice.  I think the mix is wrong right now though and they need to run with the group that has a future in Ottawa and that's Ryan, Turris, Karlsson, Lehner.  Might be young but those are the players that are getting the job done.

As I wrote above I just think no matter what it's a good thing to have veterans in the line-up. Even in a rebuild so long as they're not totally stealing opportunities from a core young player I think they provide a lot of benefits. But the problem is you have to have veterans like Alfie or Kelly who are still credible NHL players who provide a positive impact when they're on the ice. One of Edmonton's many, many problems IMO is they are relying on Smyth to fill this role but he's just not good enough a player to be a mentor any more. Same goes for Phillips in Ottawa IMO. We do have Methot and to a lesser extent Neil who I think are the right kind of characters in the room -- and Ryan, frankly -- but we could do with a lot more, like you said.

People are talking about getting a guy like Hemsky or Perron as if that's going to change things. IMO that kind of player will fold under pressure like a lot of our guys currently are. Between Ryan, Spezza, Turris, MacArthur, Zibanejad, Conacher, Michalek (kind of), etc. we have as much talent up-front as we've had since probably 2008 at least. We don't need another player who can make a toe-drag, we need players who can imbue the players we already have with confidence, who can play defensively responsible hockey in the bottom-6, and who can get the whole forward core motivated and on the forecheck. Would a guy like Kelly do that single-handedly? No, but it would get the ball rolling IMO.

Now obviously the team's most pressing need from an individual perspective is a PMD to take minutes from Karlsson, who is not confident right now and getting waaaaaay to much responsibility. But a good one is not so easy to find these days and would cost an arm and a leg. I would welcome a Del Zotto trade depending on the cost just to see if he could have an impact. But otherwise (or in addition) I think we need to bear in mind the importance of veteran leadership.

As for blowing it up, it might be the right call in a hypothetical world but I just can't see it happening. First, because a rebuilding season is a tough sell to fans when you don't have your own 1st round pick (we can't do standing watching or watch prospect highlight videos). Second, because we are close to the cap floor anyway so we wouldn't cut salary for Melnyk and would probably bring fewer fans to the rank without a name like Spezza. Third, because we can throw money at Ryan (I hope) but to keep him around I think we need to make it seem likely that we'll be competitive quickly. Fourth, because Spezza has a NTC and was just named captain and I think things would have to get much worse before that wouldn't look bad to the rest of the league and our own players to force him out.

So a Chris Kelly-type acquisition I think is a little more realistic. Although what teams currently want to give up a veteran presence who is also a valuable player I'm not sure. Perhaps we'll have to wait a little longer.

Ugh, thank you lol. Adding vets other teams don't want and consider a cap dump is not what the Sens are missing, haha. Might want to point that out to SD up there.

Bringing in vets like you are talking about is something that is done in the off season. Maybe a guy like Steve Ott would be decent but they won't be giving him away for free. That's the type of move that makes a lot of sense. Different kind of player than Kelly but still a guy that you can look at in your room as a leader on and off the ice.

The Sens have made their bed this year, they decided to go with a very young blueline and try a new leadership group in the sense everyone is being leaned on a little more. The only way you can make a change right now that would get everyone attention and bring a bit of stability to the team is trading/getting rid of Anderson. The goalie situation is going to be a gong show all year if things continue like this.

NEELY wrote:

SpezDispenser wrote:I'll tell you what you can do with your Anderson for Dubnyk and a 2nd idea:  shove it where the sun don't shine.  The day we take a piece of Dung goalie making over 3.2 million is the day pigs fly across Ottawa.  Forget it, bad idea anyway.

Makes sense because Ottawa is playing one every night right now.  At least Dubnyk would only be the backup lol.

Honestly man, you are living in a fantasy world right now.

Dubnyk for 3.2 million as a back up? No thanks.

NEELY wrote:

SpezDispenser wrote:I give up.  There's no talking with you sometimes.  Of course veterans are available, it all depends on what you're willing to do to get them and it also depends on what teams feel they're on the outside looking in and want picks.

Buffalo would move some guys, Edmonton would probably think about making some moves - and on and on.  

If Florida called and asked for Anderson and Spezza - and offered a good package, Murray would be a challenged for not thinking about it seriously.

There's no talking to me because I live in a reality world? lol.  Oh really?  What vets in Edmonton or Buffalo (that are available) are going to come into Ottawa's top 4 on the blueline or into Ottawa's top 6?  Sure you could grab Havlat, Flieshmann, someone of that nature to plug into the top 6 for a little while, those guys are not hard to find.  Defense, lol, you're kidding yourself if you can find a vet that's anything better than a #6, 7.  

You know what, show me ONE D man over 30 that's available that would slid into a top 4 role in Ottawa, just one.  Florida isn't going to move Campbell, Buffalo isn't going to move Ehrhoff, you know why?  They are top 4 d men, lol.

That's not why Buffalo won't move Ehrhoff. It's a very complicated contract that has severe penalties attached to it.

SpezDispenser wrote:

NEELY wrote:

SpezDispenser wrote:I'll tell you what you can do with your Anderson for Dubnyk and a 2nd idea:  shove it where the sun don't shine.  The day we take a piece of Dung goalie making over 3.2 million is the day pigs fly across Ottawa.  Forget it, bad idea anyway.

Makes sense because Ottawa is playing one every night right now.  At least Dubnyk would only be the backup lol.

Honestly man, you are living in a fantasy world right now.

Dubnyk for 3.2 million as a back up?  No thanks.

Do you know how flawed that thinking is right now, lol Anderson is a 3.2 million dollar back up... what's the difference?

Like ASQ said as well, they need a puck mover who can play the left side right now because Wiercioch isn't near ready for the heavy duty minutes they were expecting. Karlsson is playing at 1/2 speed and giving a questionable effort to some while to me it looks like he's just tired... the guy is playing 30 mins a night almost every single night because there is NO ONE else to lean on.

NEELY wrote:

SpezDispenser wrote:

NEELY wrote:

SpezDispenser wrote:I'll tell you what you can do with your Anderson for Dubnyk and a 2nd idea:  shove it where the sun don't shine.  The day we take a piece of Dung goalie making over 3.2 million is the day pigs fly across Ottawa.  Forget it, bad idea anyway.

Makes sense because Ottawa is playing one every night right now.  At least Dubnyk would only be the backup lol.

Honestly man, you are living in a fantasy world right now.

Dubnyk for 3.2 million as a back up?  No thanks.

Do you know how flawed that thinking is right now, lol  Anderson is a 3.2 million dollar back up... what's the difference?

Why spend money for nothing? You could get anyone and he's be better than Dubnyk and it wouldn't cost you any 3.2 million dollars. How crazy a way of thinking is that? At least Anderson has a resume that isn't littered with complete failure. Get Labarbera if you need a backup from Edmonton - at least there's a chance he won't suck everytime he comes in. At least with Dubnyk I guess he's consistent in that he sucks like a vacuum - if you're looking for that.

I mean...seriously. What kind of GM asks for a piece of Dung goalie making 3.2 million? Anderson has a track record of being very solid, he's having a bad year this year, but he has a track record. Dubnyk has a much more dubious track record to be polite.

Money in money out? lol. Again, I ask what world are you living in where every NHL roster isn't packed with 23 guys? What world are you living in where teams refuse to make deals where it's money in and money out? What world are you living in where a goaltender having an awful season gets you anything more than a meh prospect or some draft picks?

Snap out it, dude lol.

Even if it is Karlsson giving questionable effort, lowering his minutes will let him be more intense, having a PMD on the second-pairing will help us keep the puck moving (which will create a better-functioning system which help Karlsson) and having someone other than Phillips on the PP can only be a good thing. Problem is a legit PMD is not easy to come by. Del Zotto at the right price could be a good experiment.

I agree with you Neely that those vets are hard to find and usually acquired in the off-season. But it's something we have to realize should be a priority -- we can't expect to just ship off vets like Alfie and Gonchar and not have the confidence and discipline in the locker-room affected.

I mean holy hell to the Oilers ever have a lot of talent: RNH, Hall, Yakupov, Eberle, Gagner, Hemsky, Perron, Schultz, Petry. Damn. But playing in the NHL takes more than skill.

NEELY wrote:Money in money out? lol.  Again, I ask what world are you living in where every NHL roster isn't packed with 23 guys?  What world are you living in where teams refuse to make deals where it's money in and money out?  What world are you living in where a goaltender having an awful season gets you anything more than a meh prospect or some draft picks?

Snap out it, dude lol.

Elliott for Anderson

asq2 wrote:Even if it is Karlsson giving questionable effort, lowering his minutes will let him be more intense, having a PMD on the second-pairing will help us keep the puck moving (which will create a better-functioning system which help Karlsson) and having someone other than Phillips on the PP can only be a good thing. Problem is a legit PMD is not easy to come by. Del Zotto at the right price could be a good experiment.

I agree with you Neely that those vets are hard to find and usually acquired in the off-season. But it's something we have to realize should be a priority -- we can't expect to just ship off vets like Alfie and Gonchar and not have the confidence and discipline in the locker-room affected.

I mean holy hell to the Oilers ever have a lot of talent: RNH, Hall, Yakupov, Eberle, Gagner, Hemsky, Perron, Schultz, Petry. Damn. But playing in the NHL takes more than skill.

They need a guy to move the puck from the left side for sure, you can't make Karlsson stare at a tip of a needle for 30 mins a night and not expect him to make mistakes. He's going out there against teams top players, he has to be the guy that scores, he has to be the guy that makes no mistakes. Guess what? The more you play the more likely you are to make a mistake. Simple fact.

Del Zotto is pretty much exactly what this team needs right now but then you have to move out a D man and I don't think anyone is really willing to take a guy back that isn't Cowen. Kind of defeats the purpose of building a young blueline. You bring in Del Zotto and Wiercioch is 100% going the other way or somewhere, not sure the Rangers would be the team taking him back either.

As for the vets, yah, they vets Ottawa has now are struggling, Phillips is on his last legs, Neil is a good player to be where he is, and Spezza is struggling hard. Basically it's worst case scenario in Ottawa right now with how the season could have gone thus far.

The other problem that is going to rear it's ugly head as soon as Saturday is the goaltending too. Anderson vs Lehner with the fans, media, and maybe even the team is going to be a distraction the team can't afford. We have seen this play out in Ottawa time and time again, hopefully Murray makes a move to avoid this because IMO that's going to be a disaster.

Ev wrote:

NEELY wrote:Money in money out? lol.  Again, I ask what world are you living in where every NHL roster isn't packed with 23 guys?  What world are you living in where teams refuse to make deals where it's money in and money out?  What world are you living in where a goaltender having an awful season gets you anything more than a meh prospect or some draft picks?

Snap out it, dude lol.

Elliott for Anderson

Right now that looks pretty even... even then that was a struggling goalie for a struggling goalie much like what I have suggested.  Point being is goalies don't get you top 6 forwards or top 4 d men.

Even at that, Elliott was an all-star in St.Louis lol.

NEELY wrote:Money in money out? lol.  Again, I ask what world are you living in where every NHL roster isn't packed with 23 guys?  What world are you living in where teams refuse to make deals where it's money in and money out?  What world are you living in where a goaltender having an awful season gets you anything more than a meh prospect or some draft picks?

Snap out it, dude lol.

I'd keep Anderson 100 times out of 100 if I could only get a piece of Dung like Dubnyk back for the same money. Easy.

NEELY wrote:Do you know how flawed that thinking is right now, lol  Anderson is a 3.2 million dollar back up... what's the difference?

They need 2 goalies in case one gets hurt long term.