Melnyk Speaks/Globe says Rebuild is coming

Cap'n Clutch wrote:
So it's the 8 to 10 year plan Murray sold Eugene in the first place or is this a new 5 year plan being put in place?

Whatever 3 years from now makes it. We knew it would be 3 years...last year. This current season has pushed it back a bit mind you. Look at the Hurricanes as the Sens model, we might be pushing for a playoff spot next season...maybe. If we make it, it'll be on the final day in 8th IMO.

I think they can be 'competitive' most nights next year. The East is weak enough that anything is possible.

dennycrane wrote:I think they can be 'competitive' most nights next year. The East is weak enough that anything is possible.

Yeah, I think for the most part I agree. They need a new coach with a solid system, they need the young guys to produce and they need their new goalie to be awesome, but it can happen.

CockRoche wrote:

SpezDispenser wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

Cap'n Clutch wrote:Sure would make for a boring forum if we all agreed.

It's one thing to talk about things and to have disagreements. It's another when posters on a fan forum think they're so much smarter than a guy like Bryan Murray -- who has about 30 years experience as an NHL coach and 20 years experience as an NHL GM.

Let's get a little perspective, is all I'm saying.

I don't think he's done a poor job personally, but times have changed a lot. There are young, sharp minds out there, Yzerman, Anothopolis from the Jays. The old guard needs to step aside from time to time to allow a fresh perspective, and as much as I like Murray, this easily applies to this franchise.

You wouldn't happen to be talking about the speed of the game, the size of the players, the salary cap, young players being able to step in and play top-line minutes, etc, etc would you?

Not everything is like it was 25 years ago. A little perspective please.

And where's Murray been during the years those changes were happening & those decision being made? Oh yeah, either a head coach or a GM. Perennially employed in the NHL for 30 years. Always sought after, always employed.

Any one who thinks the game has passed BM by has to look at what he's done in his time here, especially on the drafting front: Karlsson, Weircioch, Smith, Cowen, Lehner, Rundblad (essentially a draft pick). Those are not the picks of a guy who doesn't understand the current and future direction of the NHL. Say what you want about his drafting people, but they're his people, assembled by him, and he's the one who makes the final decision.

Look, you're just not going to win every trade (although I'd say Shannon for Nycholat and Kuba ++ for Meszaros are good examples of ones he did win), and you're certainly not going to have every FA signing work out (OTT in general has had awful luck with just about every FA it signs -- can anyone honestly think of a big FA signing that worked out for OTT, ever?). It's unreasonable to think so. People forget too easily, too, what a mess he inherited -- it was a 'Stanley Cup Finals' team, yeah, but it was on the verge of major changes in a new cap environment & the prospect shelves were absolutely barren. This trip to the Dung was pre-determined by Muckler's moves: it was a matter of when & for how long, not if.

BM made moves that largely made sense for the team at the given moment: some worked out, some didn't. The deals a buyer makes at the deadline always looks bad in retrospect, but that's the nature of the game: you make trades to bolster your chances, & to appease a fickle audience. The coaching issue has been mind-bogglingly difficult to solve ever since Martin left, really, I grant.

Is it time for BM to go? Probably, if only for the sake of change. But it's way too facile to say that the game has passed BM by, and it's way too simple to isolate a few mistakes & blow them out of proportion, and to lose sight of what he's accomplished. There have been so many things that are out of his control that have gone wrong (especially with FAs not panning out) that it's not funny. He deserves better than what he's getting, on the ice & (too often) in these forums. And he for Cussing sure knew & knows more about the game than any poster on this or any other forum.

dennycrane wrote:Question: when Murray/Melnyk hoped to turn it around in a year, were they referring to contending for a playoff spot in 11/12 or 12/13? To me it sounded like 12/13 but I'm curious to see what others think.

BTW - not making the playoffs next year.

Not sure if this was posted -- too busy to catch up:

http://senators.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=550490

Here's a quote:

Q: Bryan indicated today that within a year, this team could be back where everyone wants it to be. Are you of the same belief that it's not going to take a long time for it to happen?
A: I think a year is a little aggressive. I know we all want to be miracle workers and we all believe we can be.To me, ultimately, we want to succeed. If you're going to get there and people see you're getting there, that's more important than trying to put a deadline on it. We know what the ultimate objective is and that's all I want to commit to. And that's a big commitment. We are going to create something we know we can sustain for years. Then it will really be up to the players to determine how fast we can get back to being an elite team.

Good to see a little temperance (probably not the right word, but I know what I mean).

rooneypoo wrote:

CockRoche wrote:

SpezDispenser wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

Cap'n Clutch wrote:Sure would make for a boring forum if we all agreed.

It's one thing to talk about things and to have disagreements. It's another when posters on a fan forum think they're so much smarter than a guy like Bryan Murray -- who has about 30 years experience as an NHL coach and 20 years experience as an NHL GM.

Let's get a little perspective, is all I'm saying.

I don't think he's done a poor job personally, but times have changed a lot. There are young, sharp minds out there, Yzerman, Anothopolis from the Jays. The old guard needs to step aside from time to time to allow a fresh perspective, and as much as I like Murray, this easily applies to this franchise.

You wouldn't happen to be talking about the speed of the game, the size of the players, the salary cap, young players being able to step in and play top-line minutes, etc, etc would you?

Not everything is like it was 25 years ago. A little perspective please.

And where's Murray been during the years those changes were happening & those decision being made? Oh yeah, either a head coach or a GM. Perennially employed in the NHL for 30 years. Always sought after, always employed.

Any one who thinks the game has passed BM by has to look at what he's done in his time here, especially on the drafting front: Karlsson, Weircioch, Smith, Cowen, Lehner, Rundblad (essentially a draft pick). Those are not the picks of a guy who doesn't understand the current and future direction of the NHL. Say what you want about his drafting people, but they're his people, assembled by him, and he's the one who makes the final decision.

Look, you're just not going to win every trade (although I'd say Shannon for Nycholat and Kuba ++ for Meszaros are good examples of ones he did win), and you're certainly not going to have every FA signing work out (OTT in general has had awful luck with just about every FA it signs -- can anyone honestly think of a big FA signing that worked out for OTT, ever?). It's unreasonable to think so. People forget too easily, too, what a mess he inherited -- it was a 'Stanley Cup Finals' team, yeah, but it was on the verge of major changes in a new cap environment & the prospect shelves were absolutely barren. This trip to the Dung was pre-determined by Muckler's moves: it was a matter of when & for how long, not if.

BM made moves that largely made sense for the team at the given moment: some worked out, some didn't. The deals a buyer makes at the deadline always looks bad in retrospect, but that's the nature of the game: you make trades to bolster your chances, & to appease a fickle audience. The coaching issue has been mind-bogglingly difficult to solve ever since Martin left, really, I grant.

Is it time for BM to go? Probably, if only for the sake of change. But it's way too facile to say that the game has passed BM by, and it's way too simple to isolate a few mistakes & blow them out of proportion, and to lose sight of what he's accomplished. There have been so many things that are out of his control that have gone wrong (especially with FAs not panning out) that it's not funny. He deserves better than what he's getting, on the ice & (too often) in these forums. And he for Cussing sure knew & knows more about the game than any poster on this or any other forum.

+1

Although he absolutely mishandled the Spezza situation last summer and that is something that I place squarely on his shoulders. The trades/FA signings and Draft picks I have no issue with.

dennycrane wrote:Question: when Murray/Melnyk hoped to turn it around in a year, were they referring to contending for a playoff spot in 11/12 or 12/13? To me it sounded like 12/13 but I'm curious to see what others think.

BTW - not making the playoffs next year.

They meant being competitive. Not sure if they expect making the playoffs.

Melnyk said he wanted to win the Cup even if it takes, 2, 3 or 5 yrs.

Theire statement about being competitive tells me it's not a full re-build.. more of a re-tool. The 'floaters' will be gone.. replaced by the young prospects -- I think Murray said about 4 of them. We know 2 will be on D that's leaves 2 forwards. Butler will be one.. but who will be the other>

SpezDispenser wrote:Rob Ray says that Melnyk is truly pissed off at Murray for not stepping behind the bench.

http://www.kuklaskorner.com/index.php/hockey/comments/ray_melnyk_upset_by_murrays_refusal_to_coach/

I’ve talked to people up there - Melnyk wants Murray to go behind the bench to finish the year coaching, and he refuses to do it, and I think it’s causing a major turmoil amongst ownership and the general manager that he’s not willing to do that, and I think you may see at the end of the year that the coach and general manager may be moved out of there.”

What the hell does Rob Ray know about anything. He is in Buffalo. How can he know what's going on between Murray & Melnyk -- only they know and they are not saying.

Rob Ray loves dishing on the Sens and this is another way to do it.

He knows about as much as the Toronto media does... NOTHING.

Yeah, I don't even mind his trades come to think of it. Campoli + Comrie (that was for Spader) was a little hard to handle, but the Corvo/Eaves for Stillman/Commodore was pretty damn good. If Commodore had played the way he did in Carolina that year before his injury, he would have been a lot better, but I think that injury (foot I think) put his career on a decline. This year when he was playing he was being beaten a lot to the outside.

Too bad we couldn't fit Stillman in. Doubly for Cullen - who was a really nice acquisition. I thought so for Sutton as well, but didn't like his playoffs.

Leclaire + high pick for Vermette is fine, Vermette wasn't working, Murray took a risk and it didn't pay off, but that happens. The 2nd was obviously turned into Lehner, which is a solid piece.

Dumped Schaefer in a day and age where I don't think you could do that again.

I dunno, he's taken a lot of swings and missed a couple of times, but not in a manor to mess with the future too much IMO.

EDIT: His lack of action was baffling at times. I realize you can't pull trades off all the time, but there were defining moments to this season relatively early on - say by game 20 - where a move was NEEDED one way or the other.

sandysensfan wrote:

SpezDispenser wrote:Rob Ray says that Melnyk is truly pissed off at Murray for not stepping behind the bench.

http://www.kuklaskorner.com/index.php/hockey/comments/ray_melnyk_upset_by_murrays_refusal_to_coach/

I’ve talked to people up there - Melnyk wants Murray to go behind the bench to finish the year coaching, and he refuses to do it, and I think it’s causing a major turmoil amongst ownership and the general manager that he’s not willing to do that, and I think you may see at the end of the year that the coach and general manager may be moved out of there.”

What the hell does Rob Ray know about anything. He is in Buffalo. How can he know what's going on between Murray & Melnyk -- only they know and they are not saying.

Rob Ray loves dishing on the Sens and this is another way to do it.

He knows about as much as the Toronto media does... NOTHING.

The Toronto media knows that Brian Jurke is a Genius.

sandysensfan wrote:

SpezDispenser wrote:Rob Ray says that Melnyk is truly pissed off at Murray for not stepping behind the bench.

http://www.kuklaskorner.com/index.php/hockey/comments/ray_melnyk_upset_by_murrays_refusal_to_coach/

I’ve talked to people up there - Melnyk wants Murray to go behind the bench to finish the year coaching, and he refuses to do it, and I think it’s causing a major turmoil amongst ownership and the general manager that he’s not willing to do that, and I think you may see at the end of the year that the coach and general manager may be moved out of there.”

What the hell does Rob Ray know about anything. He is in Buffalo. How can he know what's going on between Murray & Melnyk -- only they know and they are not saying.

Rob Ray loves dishing on the Sens and this is another way to do it.

He knows about as much as the Toronto media does... NOTHING.

This can't be a serious post; it really can't be?

Rob Ray knows more about...forget it.

I'm speechless.

EDIT - I found out that I wasn't speechless after making two more posts right after this original.

sandysensfan wrote:

SpezDispenser wrote:Rob Ray says that Melnyk is truly pissed off at Murray for not stepping behind the bench.

http://www.kuklaskorner.com/index.php/hockey/comments/ray_melnyk_upset_by_murrays_refusal_to_coach/

I’ve talked to people up there - Melnyk wants Murray to go behind the bench to finish the year coaching, and he refuses to do it, and I think it’s causing a major turmoil amongst ownership and the general manager that he’s not willing to do that, and I think you may see at the end of the year that the coach and general manager may be moved out of there.”

What the hell does Rob Ray know about anything. He is in Buffalo. How can he know what's going on between Murray & Melnyk -- only they know and they are not saying.

Rob Ray loves dishing on the Sens and this is another way to do it.

He knows about as much as the Toronto media does... NOTHING.

You are right.

I am going to stop talking to all my friends that I have made along my worldly journeys just because I had injuries, stop playing and started a family.

Rob Ray should too, even though he still works in the industry with all his friends.

sandysensfan wrote:

dennycrane wrote:Question: when Murray/Melnyk hoped to turn it around in a year, were they referring to contending for a playoff spot in 11/12 or 12/13? To me it sounded like 12/13 but I'm curious to see what others think.

BTW - not making the playoffs next year.

They meant being competitive. Not sure if they expect making the playoffs.

Melnyk said he wanted to win the Cup even if it takes, 2, 3 or 5 yrs.

Theire statement about being competitive tells me it's not a full re-build.. more of a re-tool. The 'floaters' will be gone.. replaced by the young prospects -- I think Murray said about 4 of them. We know 2 will be on D that's leaves 2 forwards. Butler will be one.. but who will be the other>

In that interview I quoted Melnyk talks about 8-9 prospects who could make the NHL next season, then when you add in the high draft pick and some trades we could have a dozen new faces in the lineup next season. That's pretty close to a full rebuild.

sandysensfan wrote:

SpezDispenser wrote:Rob Ray says that Melnyk is truly pissed off at Murray for not stepping behind the bench.

http://www.kuklaskorner.com/index.php/hockey/comments/ray_melnyk_upset_by_murrays_refusal_to_coach/

I’ve talked to people up there - Melnyk wants Murray to go behind the bench to finish the year coaching, and he refuses to do it, and I think it’s causing a major turmoil amongst ownership and the general manager that he’s not willing to do that, and I think you may see at the end of the year that the coach and general manager may be moved out of there.”

What the hell does Rob Ray know about anything. He is in Buffalo. How can he know what's going on between Murray & Melnyk -- only they know and they are not saying.

Rob Ray loves dishing on the Sens and this is another way to do it.

He knows about as much as the Toronto media does... NOTHING.

I posted some of the same stuff Rob Ray has just said; but I mentioned it a month ago. I had that knowledge after one lunch that was scheduled to catch up with an old friend.

Rob Ray, on the other hand, has an unlimited amount of contacts within the NHL.

SpezDispenser wrote:Yeah, I don't even mind his trades come to think of it. Campoli + Comrie (that was for Spader) was a little hard to handle, but the Corvo/Eaves for Stillman/Commodore was pretty damn good. If Commodore had played the way he did in Carolina that year before his injury, he would have been a lot better, but I think that injury (foot I think) put his career on a decline. This year when he was playing he was being beaten a lot to the outside.

Too bad we couldn't fit Stillman in. Doubly for Cullen - who was a really nice acquisition. I thought so for Sutton as well, but didn't like his playoffs.

Leclaire + high pick for Vermette is fine, Vermette wasn't working, Murray took a risk and it didn't pay off, but that happens. The 2nd was obviously turned into Lehner, which is a solid piece.

Dumped Schaefer in a day and age where I don't think you could do that again.

I dunno, he's taken a lot of swings and missed a couple of times, but not in a manor to mess with the future too much IMO.

EDIT: His lack of action was baffling at times. I realize you can't pull trades off all the time, but there were defining moments to this season relatively early on - say by game 20 - where a move was NEEDED one way or the other.

The thing about Murray is that he does take risks but more often then not, he finds himself on the losing end of it. Now, I'm not going to sit here and say that he should win every single trade because there's obviously factors he cannot control that are involved as well.

Up until this past offseason, I could see where you could say Murray did an okay job but he TOTALLY blew it over the summer to me. I mean Gonchar over Volchenkov? We had the BEST shutdown pair in the league and that was key to a lot of our success last year and previous years. Now it's gone and it's replaced by Gonchar? Terrible terrible signing and I knew it the day it happened.

Then there's letting Cullen go. He should have been signed to an extension the day after our loss to the Pens. He was awesome for us and for once Murray found a player that fit right in but he inexplicably let him walk. You could argue Sutton as well but I don't think he was that essential.

Bottom line though...this team had an identity last year and that was tough defensemen. Opposing forwards were afraid to come over the blue line with guys like Volchenkov and Sutton on D. This year they don't have an identity because of the changes made over the summer and Murray is going to lose his job because of it.

sandysensfan wrote:What the hell does Rob Ray know about anything. He is in Buffalo. How can he know what's going on between Murray & Melnyk -- only they know and they are not saying.

Rob Ray loves dishing on the Sens and this is another way to do it.

He knows about as much as the Toronto media does... NOTHING.

Rob Ray is a standup guy and former Senator. If he didn't know for sure then he wouldn't have come out and said this because he has friends that are still in the organization. Why would he fabricate under those circumstances?

The way he describes it actually makes A LOT of sense...

Urkie wrote:

sandysensfan wrote:What the hell does Rob Ray know about anything. He is in Buffalo. How can he know what's going on between Murray & Melnyk -- only they know and they are not saying.

Rob Ray loves dishing on the Sens and this is another way to do it.

He knows about as much as the Toronto media does... NOTHING.

Rob Ray is a standup guy and former Senator. If he didn't know for sure then he wouldn't have come out and said this because he has friends that are still in the organization. Why would he fabricate under those circumstances?

The way he describes it actually makes A LOT of sense...

Thank you.

Urkie wrote:
The thing about Murray is that he does take risks but more often then not, he finds himself on the losing end of it. Now, I'm not going to sit here and say that he should win every single trade because there's obviously factors he cannot control that are involved as well.

Up until this past offseason, I could see where you could say Murray did an okay job but he TOTALLY blew it over the summer to me. I mean Gonchar over Volchenkov? We had the BEST shutdown pair in the league and that was key to a lot of our success last year and previous years. Now it's gone and it's replaced by Gonchar? Terrible terrible signing and I knew it the day it happened.

Then there's letting Cullen go. He should have been signed to an extension the day after our loss to the Pens. He was awesome for us and for once Murray found a player that fit right in but he inexplicably let him walk. You could argue Sutton as well but I don't think he was that essential.

Bottom line though...this team had an identity last year and that was tough defensemen. Opposing forwards were afraid to come over the blue line with guys like Volchenkov and Sutton on D. This year they don't have an identity because of the changes made over the summer and Murray is going to lose his job because of it.

I'm not sure I can totally agree with the Gonchar sentiment. There's definitely a trend going towards puck-movers and points from the backend has never been as important IMO. Murray traded in a shot-blocker for what was supposed to be one of the very best puck moving PP QBs in the league. It hasn't worked yet, but neither has it in NJ.