Toronto Maple Leafs TIDBITS & QUICK HITS!

Riprock wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

SeawaySensFan wrote:Florida has an aggressive GM that knows how to build through the draft, FA signings and, yes, even trades. High picks alone weren't working for Florida either.

Exactly my point. In fact, how they drafted in the last 10 years does NOT at all explain how they won their division this year.

But it does defeat the claim that losers are always losers, which is not only erroneous but a horrible generalization.

Losers are always losers if they think losing all the time to get lottery picks will get them anywhere. Tallon is moving away from that black hole mentality and that's why Florida is finally making progress.

Oddly enough, with the CBA expiring this year... there may be a lockout next year... so, if the Leafs win the lottery tonight and get the first overall pick, and then there's a lockout next year, and then they hold a Post-Lockout Lottery Draft, and the Leafs win that too... that would be about as close to a "Pitt Model" as you can get in this day and age.



Heh heh.

NEELY wrote:I'll take the bet another step. I'll be you both Florida AND Edmonton don't make the playoffs. That's the bet.

No.

SeawaySensFan wrote:

Riprock wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

SeawaySensFan wrote:Florida has an aggressive GM that knows how to build through the draft, FA signings and, yes, even trades. High picks alone weren't working for Florida either.

Exactly my point. In fact, how they drafted in the last 10 years does NOT at all explain how they won their division this year.

But it does defeat the claim that losers are always losers, which is not only erroneous but a horrible generalization.

Losers are always losers if they think losing all the time to get lottery picks will get them anywhere. Tallon is moving away from that black hole mentality and that's why Florida is finally making progress.

Who said they want to lose? The players certainly don't. The GM that's job is on the line doesn't. Same with the coaches. The team's that lose are just not good enough, plain and simple. Over time, with talent built through drafting, FA, and trades they can turn it around.

Riprock wrote:

NEELY wrote:I'll take the bet another step. I'll be you both Florida AND Edmonton don't make the playoffs. That's the bet.

No.

I wouldn't want to lose either.

Riprock wrote:

SeawaySensFan wrote:

Riprock wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

SeawaySensFan wrote:Florida has an aggressive GM that knows how to build through the draft, FA signings and, yes, even trades. High picks alone weren't working for Florida either.

Exactly my point. In fact, how they drafted in the last 10 years does NOT at all explain how they won their division this year.

But it does defeat the claim that losers are always losers, which is not only erroneous but a horrible generalization.

Losers are always losers if they think losing all the time to get lottery picks will get them anywhere. Tallon is moving away from that black hole mentality and that's why Florida is finally making progress.

Who said they want to lose? The players certainly don't. The GM that's job is on the line doesn't. Same with the coaches. The team's that lose are just not good enough, plain and simple. Over time, with talent built through drafting, FA, and trades they can turn it around.

Talent gets you to the NHL. It's up to the organization to develop it and that's part of a winning culture. People fail to mention it took Mario getting ownership to start winning as well. Diddle, he had to come back and play.

Riprock wrote:Florida did turn it around. Don't use their division as an excuse. They have a tonne of talent and veteran experience.

You can't say that Malkin wouldn't be the Malkin he is today w/o Crosby and say that otherwise is untrue. There's no truth value to be determined. I have just as much truth to say he would be as you do to say he wouldn't be.

While Hall/Eberle/MPS/RNH =/= Crosby, they are still good. They very well could be in playoffs next year.

If the Islanders played in the SE they might have made it.

Riprock wrote:

wprager wrote:
60 goal season down the drain. *THAT's* where Tampais.

Big deal, they didn't make the playoffs. They were there last year. Their goaltending kileld them. 40+ Roloson with no real back up that could take over. Injuries to defencemen too.

And have they solved that? Starters take years to develop. Sens have Anderson for another 3 years with Bishop ready now and Lehner coming up.

Riprock wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

SeawaySensFan wrote:Florida has an aggressive GM that knows how to build through the draft, FA signings and, yes, even trades. High picks alone weren't working for Florida either.

Exactly my point. In fact, how they drafted in the last 10 years does NOT at all explain how they won their division this year.

But it does defeat the claim that losers are always losers, which is not only erroneous but a horrible generalization.

No one is arguing that. Instead, what people are arguing here is that you're placing WAY too much emphasis on top-5 picks; they're saying the correlation between those picks and winning is far more dubious that you're suggesting.

There are so many factors that go into winning. Drafting a top-5 player or series of top-5 players can help, and it can not help -- history shows us that, indisputably. More important than any one player or handful of players is how the organization is run, from top to bottom. Winners don't necessarily have a bunch of top-5 picks, nor do winners who have those top-5 picks win because of that one factor alone -- development, coaching, FA signings, etc. etc., all play a role, and they are all roughly equally important.

Has anyone noticed that the background has turned to black? Shabbs' sig is just a black rectangle. Am I having a stroke?

Just think IF the Leafs did not do the Kessel trade.. they would have had the 2nd overall pick 2 yrs ago... the 9th overall pick last year... and will probably win the draft lottery tonight to pick 1st overall.

That would be quite a haul in good young players... Burke panicked and rushed the re-build.. and it cost them big time.

Riprock wrote:You really have to stop saying losing year after year does not work, when clearly as I have shown, it does. Florida, Chicago, Pittsburgh, Ottawa...

Man, you really have to stop using Florida as an example. They didn't rebuild through the draft, they traded away all the players they drafted and developed. They rebuilt in one off-season, through trades and FA.

ddt wrote:

Riprock wrote:You really have to stop saying losing year after year does not work, when clearly as I have shown, it does. Florida, Chicago, Pittsburgh, Ottawa...

Man, you really have to stop using Florida as an example. They didn't rebuild through the draft, they traded away all the players they drafted and developed. They rebuilt in one off-season, through trades and FA.

Nope..... they did not.....

Gudbranson (3rd overall in 2010), Kulikov (14th in '09), Markstrom (31st in 2008), Repik, Weiss (4th overall in '01)

I certainly hope you didn't mean it that way.

Oh and I didn't say Florida was an example of drafting alone, I fully credit their rebuild via traes and FA's. My only point was that teams that lose for many years can in fact win later on.

sandysensfan wrote:Just think IF the Leafs did not do the Kessel trade.. they would have had the 2nd overall pick 2 yrs ago... the 9th overall pick last year... and will probably win the draft lottery tonight to pick 1st overall.

That would be quite a haul in good young players... Burke panicked and rushed the re-build.. and it cost them big time.

That's a really good point. The fickel fans were defending Burke though, saying Kessel > 2 1sts and a 2nd.

Riprock wrote:

ddt wrote:

Riprock wrote:You really have to stop saying losing year after year does not work, when clearly as I have shown, it does. Florida, Chicago, Pittsburgh, Ottawa...

Man, you really have to stop using Florida as an example. They didn't rebuild through the draft, they traded away all the players they drafted and developed. They rebuilt in one off-season, through trades and FA.

Nope..... they did not.....

Gudbranson (3rd overall in 2010), Kulikov (14th in '09), Markstrom (31st in 2008), Repik, Weiss (4th overall in '01)

I certainly hope you didn't mean it that way.

Oh and I didn't say Florida was an example of drafting alone, I fully credit their rebuild via traes and FA's. My only point was that teams that lose for many years can in fact win later on.

Not without change at the top they cant. Chicago and Pitts are actually examples of that. They got rid of the losers. Losers breed losers and losers keep losing.

Edmonton won't do anything until they are gone.

NEELY wrote:
Talent gets you to the NHL. It's up to the organization to develop it and that's part of a winning culture. People fail to mention it took Mario getting ownership to start winning as well. Diddle, he had to come back and play.

Careful - you are close to arguing that the 1st overall pick and any pick thereafter are all equal in terms of talent and regardless of the round you are picked in, an organization can make you as good as the #1 overall pick.

There may be a few cases where that has happened, but if you are seriously going to argue that Zibanejad and RNH are equal in talent, that's crazy. There's a reason players are rated higher than others, and there's a reason why pretty much everyone here was hoping the Sens would draft RNH, Landeskog, Huberdeau and Couturier. Zibanejad wasn't even mentioned (except by me and Ev apparently).

Oh, and who are the losers in Edmonton?

Riprock wrote:

NEELY wrote:
Talent gets you to the NHL. It's up to the organization to develop it and that's part of a winning culture. People fail to mention it took Mario getting ownership to start winning as well. Diddle, he had to come back and play.

Careful - you are close to arguing that the 1st overall pick and any pick thereafter are all equal in terms of talent and regardless of the round you are picked in, an organization can make you as good as the #1 overall pick.

There may be a few cases where that has happened, but if you are seriously going to argue that Zibanejad and RNH are equal in talent, that's crazy. There's a reason players are rated higher than others, and there's a reason why pretty much everyone here was hoping the Sens would draft RNH, Landeskog, Huberdeau and Couturier. Zibanejad wasn't even mentioned (except by me and Ev apparently).

Not saying they are right now or they ever will be but it's possible that it does happen down the line. I don't think he has the tools RNH has in terms of his vision or hockey sense but talk to me in 10 years and see where both guys are. Right now RNH is the best from that draft and it's a run away.

I was not one of the people that wanted Couturier and still don't. A good organization can develop guys that are raw, RNH wasn't raw, he was small. We'll see how he progresses if Edmonton keeps losing.