Another Heatley rumor to throw on the pile...

I don't think its anywhere near close - Imo there's no way in hell you can consider Kadri elite now, nor do I believe he'll ever be an elite player. Frankly, I'm dumbfounded at the suggestion. We must simply have different definitions of elite...for me, Spezza is "borderline" when it comes to discussing elite talent. As such, Kadri doesn't even get within a mile of that border...

cas wrote:I don't think its anywhere near close - Imo there's no way in hell you can consider Kadri elite now, nor do I believe he'll ever be an elite player. Frankly, I'm dumbfounded at the suggestion. We must simply have different definitions of elite...for me, Spezza is "borderline" when it comes to discussing elite talent. As such, Kadri doesn't even get within a mile of that border...

I believe Kadri isn't allowed to cross the border

asq2 wrote:

SpezDispenser wrote:

wprager wrote:
So is he (Kadri) elite or supporting?

Personally, I think "Elite" goes top-three, even in a deep draft. Sure, Kadri led his team in scoring, but a team-mate finished just 2 points back, and this is a defenseman. Burke got Kadri for his style of play, I think, not necessarily expecting him to be a big scorer (which echoes what you said, actually).

Actually, that's a good question. When there was talk we were going to select Kadri, I thought of him as a second line center. I think he's on the threshold between elite and top tier, but, the question is a good one. Will he every dominate at the NHL level?

I have doubts to be honest. Close though. :*:

I guess it depends on the definition of elite. And also your impression of Kadri: some say he's not that different from Duchene, just less polished. I have my doubts about whether some of his finesse will translate to the NHL level.

I don't think he's much less of a prospect than our defencemen, though, to clarify.

I have very little doubt that it won't, but obviously I could be wrong.

As for the last sentence: I would take Karlsson 100 times out of 100 over Kadri. No even close.... I was ecstatic that Burke selected Kadri and left Cowen on the table, so you can guess how I feel in terms of that comparison. And Wiercioch had the kind of rookie year that makes your mouth water... I wouldn't take Kadri over any of them.

Tuk Tuk wrote:

cas wrote:I don't think its anywhere near close - Imo there's no way in hell you can consider Kadri elite now, nor do I believe he'll ever be an elite player. Frankly, I'm dumbfounded at the suggestion. We must simply have different definitions of elite...for me, Spezza is "borderline" when it comes to discussing elite talent. As such, Kadri doesn't even get within a mile of that border...

I believe Kadri isn't allowed to cross the border

I don't think he's allowed to apply for a passport.

cas wrote:
I have very little doubt that it won't, but obviously I could be wrong.

As for the last sentence: I would take Karlsson 100 times out of 100 over Kadri. No even close.... I was ecstatic that Burke selected Kadri and left Cowen on the table, so you can guess how I feel in terms of that comparison. And Wiercioch had the kind of rookie year that makes your mouth water... I wouldn't take Kadri over any of them.

So many conflicting feelings in that post for me. :^^^^:

1.I think you may be selling Kadri a little short, he's going to be pretty good.

2.I agree, Mel and I were dancing when they selected Kadri, leaving at least one of Cowen or MPS on the table for us.

3.I would take Karlsson over Kadri any day of the week. Cowen as well. Wiercioch as well in all probability (although, it's a little early to tell).

Tough to forecast this kind of forward. He's got the tools, he needs to bulk up and start putting those tools to work at the NHL level. We'll see if he can handle it - soon, because I think he makes the Leafs this year.

SpezDispenser wrote:

cas wrote:
I have very little doubt that it won't, but obviously I could be wrong.

As for the last sentence: I would take Karlsson 100 times out of 100 over Kadri. No even close.... I was ecstatic that Burke selected Kadri and left Cowen on the table, so you can guess how I feel in terms of that comparison. And Wiercioch had the kind of rookie year that makes your mouth water... I wouldn't take Kadri over any of them.

So many conflicting feelings in that post for me. :^^^^:

1.I think you may be selling Kadri a little short, he's going to be pretty good.

2.I agree, Mel and I were dancing when they selected Kadri, leaving at least one of Cowen or MPS on the table for us.

3.I would take Karlsson over Kadri any day of the week. Cowen as well. Wiercioch as well in all probability (although, it's a little early to tell).

Tough to forecast this kind of forward. He's got the tools, he needs to bulk up and start putting those tools to work at the NHL level. We'll see if he can handle it - soon, because I think he makes the Leafs this year.

Maybe he does, but I guarantee he has no chance on 25 other teams... He could end up being a Cheechoo style 1-hit wonder or a Comrie style perennial disappointment or a player of value, but I wouldn't put my hard earned money behind the latter

I will say this Cas: I was STUNNED when the Leafs selected him. Out of my chair stunned. I thought for certain Burke would select Cowen - and I was afraid, I won't lie. Schenn and Cowen....not good for the NE. Schenn and Komisarek...still not great, but not the double, young whammy of two big, strapping D-men who literally want to kill you.

Even if he's not taking Cowen, skipping MPS is just crazy.

Same as all you guys, totally shocked watching the draft this spring. The fact that Burke took Kadri guaranteeing us one of Cowen or MPS. Add to this that Dallas then went off the board so to speak in selecting Glennie and not only did we get one of Cowen and MPS, but we got our choice.

Looking back, did we make the right choice for our organization in Cowen or would you have preferred MPS?

FireOnIce wrote:Same as all you guys, totally shocked watching the draft this spring. The fact that Burke took Kadri guaranteeing us one of Cowen or MPS. Add to this that Dallas then went off the board so to speak in selecting Glennie and not only did we get one of Cowen and MPS, but we got our choice.

Looking back, did we make the right choice for our organization in Cowen or would you have preferred MPS?

I was a big MPS supporter even prior to the 2008 draft, and I still think his upside is potentially on par with the top forwards in the draft class.

That said, given that our two immediately post-Cowen picks were Swedes, and given that Anders Forsberg is probably the second-best Sweden scout in the business, I'd imagine that the Sens' brass found something they didn't like, or just liked Cowen more, which I can understand - this guy was number three in the draft before this past season started.

Plus, you build from the net out.

So, IMO getting MPS would have been sexier, but Cowen's got as much substance as arguably anyone in the draft. I'm not crying myself to sleep over that one. cool)

EDIT: I am, however, going to cry myself to sleep over the fact that I seem to be making a paragraph out of every sentence of mine at the moment.

cas wrote:I don't think its anywhere near close - Imo there's no way in hell you can consider Kadri elite now, nor do I believe he'll ever be an elite player. Frankly, I'm dumbfounded at the suggestion. We must simply have different definitions of elite...for me, Spezza is "borderline" when it comes to discussing elite talent. As such, Kadri doesn't even get within a mile of that border...

I guess the idea that an elite prospect is one with a chance to turn into an elite player is a more logical one. The less logical one that I was going with was that Kadri is one of the best forward prospects out there, ergo making him an elite forward prospect, albeit at the bottom of that tier.

asq2 wrote:

FireOnIce wrote:Same as all you guys, totally shocked watching the draft this spring. The fact that Burke took Kadri guaranteeing us one of Cowen or MPS. Add to this that Dallas then went off the board so to speak in selecting Glennie and not only did we get one of Cowen and MPS, but we got our choice.

Looking back, did we make the right choice for our organization in Cowen or would you have preferred MPS?

I was a big MPS supporter even prior to the 2008 draft, and I still think his upside is potentially on par with the top forwards in the draft class.

That said, given that our two immediately post-Cowen picks were Swedes, and given that Anders Forsberg is probably the second-best Sweden scout in the business, I'd imagine that the Sens' brass found something they didn't like, or just liked Cowen more, which I can understand - this guy was number three in the draft before this past season started.

Plus, you build from the net out.

So, IMO getting MPS would have been sexier, but Cowen's got as much substance as arguably anyone in the draft. I'm not crying myself to sleep over that one. cool)

EDIT: I am, however, going to cry myself to sleep over the fact that I seem to be making a paragraph out of every sentence of mine at the moment.

I'm loving your posts (other than that initial one is disagreed with) .

Where were you the last 10 days?

asq2 wrote:
I was a big MPS supporter even prior to the 2008 draft, and I still think his upside is potentially on par with the top forwards in the draft class.

That said, given that our two immediately post-Cowen picks were Swedes, and given that Anders Forsberg is probably the second-best Sweden scout in the business, I'd imagine that the Sens' brass found something they didn't like, or just liked Cowen more, which I can understand - this guy was number three in the draft before this past season started.

Plus, you build from the net out.

So, IMO getting MPS would have been sexier, but Cowen's got as much substance as arguably anyone in the draft. I'm not crying myself to sleep over that one. cool)

EDIT: I am, however, going to cry myself to sleep over the fact that I seem to be making a paragraph out of every sentence of mine at the moment.

I'm doing that too these days. WTF is that all about?

Yeah I can see where you're coming from, but its the Kyle Turris's, the Oscar Moller's, the Cody Hodgson's (etc.) who are elite prospects. The fact that Kadri was a worthy first round pick, but a questionable top-10 pick doesn't permit him to join that elite category, Imo.

To be clear, I don't consider Duchene an elite prospect either...Having a (likely) 60-70 point center is great and I think he was the right pick in that slot, but I really have a hard time picturing him toping 80 points in his career; same goes for Kadri.

When it comes down to it, its all just perception. I'm not sure foresight or prescience is any more clear than any of yours, but its my view nonetheless. And I just don't see Kadri putting up big numbers in the NHL. I think it was a terrible pick. Speaking of which, I've been looking at Burke's moves recently and I'm convinced he's entrenched in the process of destroying his already underserved reputation as a great GM.

It's nothing major, but when Forsberg wasn't dancing up to the podium ahead of Murray, then you knew they saw something in MPS they didn't like.

I'm sure Edmonton got an elite talent, but this is a project to say the least. He'll take time and patience and probably 2 more years to be farmed properly. Edmonton seems to like the idea of him making a quick jump to the NHL, but I'd warn against that in a big, big way. They've got time, he's got time. Let him develop.

Versus Cowen who if he's healed will be a bonafide bone-crushing, demolition machine.

100% with you there cas trading away kubina and loading with lumbering D men with only kaberle to move the puck looks like he is downgrading the d not preparing for the future

cas wrote:Yeah I can see where you're coming from, but its the Kyle Turris's, the Oscar Moller's, the Cody Hodgson's (etc.) who are elite prospects. The fact that Kadri was a worthy first round pick, but a questionable top-10 pick doesn't permit him to join that elite category, Imo.

To be clear, I don't consider Duchene an elite prospect either...Having a (likely) 60-70 point center is great and I think he was the right pick in that slot, but I really have a hard time picturing him toping 80 points in his career; same goes for Kadri.

When it comes down to it, its all just perception. I'm not sure foresight or prescience is any more clear than any of yours, but its my view nonetheless. And I just don't see Kadri putting up big numbers in the NHL. I think it was a terrible pick. Speaking of which, I've been looking at Burke's moves recently and I'm convinced he's entrenched in the process of destroying his already underserved reputation as a great GM.

Disagree on Duchene, I think he's going to be a marvellous player. I agree that Burke's been doing some pretty bizarre trades though. Hated (loved) both the Kubina and Stralman trades.

I don't see Kadri as a terrible pick, but I don't see him winning the Art Ross either. I see his upside as a bigger, somewhat less productive Derek Roy. Not a guy you can build around up front (which is what the Leafs need pretty badly, I guess) but a good supportive player.

So, I guess what I've been saying has been pretty contradictory. I don't think he'll be an elite player, but I think he's a good prospect. That made sense in my mind, but less so now that I've written it out.

Hockeyhero22000 wrote:100% with you there cas trading away kubina and loading with lumbering D men with only kaberle to move the puck looks like he is downgrading the d not preparing for the future

I actually liked the Kubina trade at first, but the more I read about it and the more I thought about it, the more I scratched my head Still not quite sure what Burke is thinking. He's making some pretty big gambles - not the least of which is passing on Kessel.