ALL Spezza talk - to trade, not to trade, rant, rave etc.

SpezDispenser wrote:

NEELY wrote:

SpezDispenser wrote:I don't know about that at all Cash. There's no excuse for his play or the team's play really, but we've been playing some pretty good teams and Spezza has over a PPG now.

Let me know where he is at when the west coast road trip is over at the end of Nov.

Okay, but we've played Detroit, Toronto, Philly, Washington, Minny, Winnipeg and the Avs. The only two teams in there that are garbage are Minny and Wiinipeg, so he's faced 5 teams that I would consider either playoff teams, or close to it (perhaps the Avs and Toronto fit into a ? category) and he's tied for 4th in the league for points.

I'm not saying he doesn't have a long way to go - his giveaways last night alone drove me crazy, but it's not as if he's not producing against good teams.

Oh, but NEELY said he produces against bad teams, or when it doesn't matter (like when they are down five goals). What NEELY needs is an example where Spezza scores or assists on the tying or winning goal against a playoff-bound team, not while the Sens are on a powerplay, and when the Sens themselves are expected to make the playoffs (otherwise there is "no pressure" and it's a "nothing game").

Of course in order for the Sens to be a playoff-bound team, it will take more than a 39-year-old captain, a guy with two reconstructed knees and Spezza to drive the team bus, at which point NEELY will simply say that Spezza plays fine when surrounded by elite talent.

What he wants Spezza to do put this team on his back and drag them, kicking and screaming, into the playoffs. And do that on a consistent basis. Spezza just isn't that kind of player. No-one is that kind of player. *THAT* is the reason why I brought Mario in as an example but, of course, the only response NEELY could muster was that I shouldn't use Mario and Spezza in the same post. Completely missed that I was not comparing them, but simply stating that one of the greatest centers ever in this game could not put the team on his back and cary them into the playoffs until he was surrounded by *some* talent.

This topic is lame. Where's my heritage jersey?

La Femme wrote:This topic is lame. Where's my heritage jersey?

I got mine

My wife bought it (as the girls' b/d present for me). She said "It looks really nice, but I don't understand the zero on the front -- what's that for?"

wprager wrote:Oh, but NEELY said he produces against bad teams, or when it doesn't matter (like when they are down five goals). What NEELY needs is an example where Spezza scores or assists on the tying or winning goal against a playoff-bound team, not while the Sens are on a powerplay, and when the Sens themselves are expected to make the playoffs (otherwise there is "no pressure" and it's a "nothing game").

Of course in order for the Sens to be a playoff-bound team, it will take more than a 39-year-old captain, a guy with two reconstructed knees and Spezza to drive the team bus, at which point NEELY will simply say that Spezza plays fine when surrounded by elite talent.

What he wants Spezza to do put this team on his back and drag them, kicking and screaming, into the playoffs. And do that on a consistent basis. Spezza just isn't that kind of player. No-one is that kind of player. *THAT* is the reason why I brought Mario in as an example but, of course, the only response NEELY could muster was that I shouldn't use Mario and Spezza in the same post. Completely missed that I was not comparing them, but simply stating that one of the greatest centers ever in this game could not put the team on his back and cary them into the playoffs until he was surrounded by *some* talent.

Who said all that stuff?

SpezDispenser wrote:I don't know about that at all Cash. There's no excuse for his play or the team's play really, but we've been playing some pretty good teams and Spezza has over a PPG now.

You're really going to make me do this? Fine.
8 points
2 assists to help make it 5-2 in the 3rd for Detroit
1 assist to make 4-1 for Toronto, 1 goal to make it 5-3
0 points against Wild
0 points against Colorago
0 points against Washington
1 goal to make it 4-1 for Philly
1+2 against Winnipeg

He's either put up points when it doesn't matter or against the Jets.

wprager wrote:

cash wrote:

asq2 wrote:

Big Ev wrote:but seriously, aren't you amazed by his point totals even though he has played sub-par?

Well yes and no. I'm amazed by how dominating he can be. But he's also on a team with two very good wingers (Michalek and Alfredsson), one of the best offensive defencemen in the league, and two other pretty talented d-men. So it doesn't really surprise me that when he decides to turn it on, he's able to produce.

On the other hand, it's probably not fair to expect substantially higher production from him even if he tried more often. But the production could be better timed which would go a long way for our record in the standings. Especially since if his effort carried over into the defensive zone more consistently we'd be much better equipped to defend any early leads.

He's collected all of his points when the game was already over or against inferior competition, neither of which is a new trend. He has moments against better teams, but they're far too infrequent.

Last night's game did nothing to change my opinion that he is a poor influence for the youth movement.

The Sens will not win unless it's against inferior competition. And they are expected to lose big against the better teams. So when we are down 4-5 to the likes of Detroit and Spezza bags 2-3 points, it falls into the one basket; and when he sets up the tying goal and scores the winner, before icing it with another assist, well it goes in the other basket.

It's hard to win with those rules.

How is it a new theme? He's done this for years.

Poor spezza...damned if he puts up points and damned if he doesn't. Quite frankly, I don't give a damn until he puts in the same effort that he was putting in towards the end of last year.

At the same time, I'm not going to fault him for getting the majority of his points against bad teams. At least he's ONE ottawa senator who's doing it...where are the rest?

The good news: he's putting up points even though he's not playing well

The bad news: he's not playing well

The bottom line: play well at all times please, use your speed, create plays without turning the puck over at inopportune times, use Michalek and Greening as your 'digger's, shoot the puck more

SpezDispenser wrote:The good news: he's putting up points even though he's not playing well

The bad news: he's not playing well

The bottom line: play well at all times please, use your speed, create plays without turning the puck over at inopportune times, use Michalek and Greening as your 'digger's, shoot the puck more

Yep...if there's anything we've learnt about Spezza and the Sens over the years, it's that Spezza is not going to carry a team. All that we can hope for with this team, the way it is playing and developing at this point in the season is that Spezz can get something going with guys like Michalek and Greening rather than also requiring Alfie on his line. Of the two of them, unfortunately, Alfie is still the one that is more likely going to find a way to produce with lesser quality talent as linemate. Unfortunate because where they both are in their careers, this, surely should not be the case!

Vandelay wrote:

SpezDispenser wrote:The good news: he's putting up points even though he's not playing well

The bad news: he's not playing well

The bottom line: play well at all times please, use your speed, create plays without turning the puck over at inopportune times, use Michalek and Greening as your 'digger's, shoot the puck more

Yep...if there's anything we've learnt about Spezza and the Sens over the years, it's that Spezza is not going to carry a team. All that we can hope for with this team, the way it is playing and developing at this point in the season is that Spezz can get something going with guys like Michalek and Greening rather than also requiring Alfie on his line. Of the two of them, unfortunately, Alfie is still the one that is more likely going to find a way to produce with lesser quality talent as linemate. Unfortunate because where they both are in their careers, this, surely should not be the case!

I really don't think that's the case. Spezza played with two rookies last year, getting their first ever taste of the NHL in Greening and Butler. That's not to say they didn't handle themselves well on his wing, but it's not exactly the talent of some of the other top centers in this game. In fact, I'd say it's hard to find a top line C with worse talent in the league - and that's no offense to Greening and Michalek, more just a matter of most teams have at least one top winger, last year for Spezza it wasn't even Michalek, it was Bobby Butler.

SpezDispenser wrote:

Vandelay wrote:

SpezDispenser wrote:The good news: he's putting up points even though he's not playing well

The bad news: he's not playing well

The bottom line: play well at all times please, use your speed, create plays without turning the puck over at inopportune times, use Michalek and Greening as your 'digger's, shoot the puck more

Yep...if there's anything we've learnt about Spezza and the Sens over the years, it's that Spezza is not going to carry a team. All that we can hope for with this team, the way it is playing and developing at this point in the season is that Spezz can get something going with guys like Michalek and Greening rather than also requiring Alfie on his line. Of the two of them, unfortunately, Alfie is still the one that is more likely going to find a way to produce with lesser quality talent as linemate. Unfortunate because where they both are in their careers, this, surely should not be the case!

I really don't think that's the case. Spezza played with two rookies last year, getting their first ever taste of the NHL in Greening and Butler. That's not to say they didn't handle themselves well on his wing, but it's not exactly the talent of some of the other top centers in this game. In fact, I'd say it's hard to find a top line C with worse talent in the league - and that's no offense to Greening and Michalek, more just a matter of most teams have at least one top winger, last year for Spezza it wasn't even Michalek, it was Bobby Butler.

If you're the coach and you have to choose between Spezz and Alfie, who do you choose, to win one game? Spezza won't carry a team. That doesn't mean he can't put up points, even in big games. He's just not gonna do it himself. At the end of last year, he was great, but that's not carrying a team...they had no where to go.

Michallica wrote:Poor spezza...damned if he puts up points and damned if he doesn't. Quite frankly, I don't give a damn until he puts in the same effort that he was putting in towards the end of last year.

At the same time, I'm not going to fault him for getting the majority of his points against bad teams. At least he's ONE ottawa senator who's doing it...where are the rest?

Alfi, Michalek, Greening, and Karlsson?

And of those four, two have mostly played with Spezza.

But of course #19 had nothing to do with their success. Nothing at all.

wprager wrote:And of those four, two have mostly played with Spezza.

But of course #19 had nothing to do with their success. Nothing at all.

You know what, just because you brought this up, on Ottawa's first two goals on Thurs, who did all the work? I wasn't going to say anything about it because it's kind of grasping at straws but he literally moved maybe 2 inches on those 2 goals and the last one was an empty netter.

All 4 of the players I have mentioned are out playing Spezza and for the most part, proping him up right now because Greening and Michalek bith play 200 foot games and do the things Spezza would never in a million years do. Karlsson basically controls the offense now. Alfi leads that team, not Spezza.

SpezDispenser wrote:

Vandelay wrote:

SpezDispenser wrote:The good news: he's putting up points even though he's not playing well

The bad news: he's not playing well

The bottom line: play well at all times please, use your speed, create plays without turning the puck over at inopportune times, use Michalek and Greening as your 'digger's, shoot the puck more

Yep...if there's anything we've learnt about Spezza and the Sens over the years, it's that Spezza is not going to carry a team. All that we can hope for with this team, the way it is playing and developing at this point in the season is that Spezz can get something going with guys like Michalek and Greening rather than also requiring Alfie on his line. Of the two of them, unfortunately, Alfie is still the one that is more likely going to find a way to produce with lesser quality talent as linemate. Unfortunate because where they both are in their careers, this, surely should not be the case!

I really don't think that's the case. Spezza played with two rookies last year, getting their first ever taste of the NHL in Greening and Butler. That's not to say they didn't handle themselves well on his wing, but it's not exactly the talent of some of the other top centers in this game. In fact, I'd say it's hard to find a top line C with worse talent in the league - and that's no offense to Greening and Michalek, more just a matter of most teams have at least one top winger, last year for Spezza it wasn't even Michalek, it was Bobby Butler.

I think it's about time we stop evaluating players on a lottery team in games after the spring break

Seriously. Right now, when the games matter and you need certain players to step up when the game is still actually game, it hasn't happened.

NEELY wrote:

Michallica wrote:Poor spezza...damned if he puts up points and damned if he doesn't. Quite frankly, I don't give a damn until he puts in the same effort that he was putting in towards the end of last year.

At the same time, I'm not going to fault him for getting the majority of his points against bad teams. At least he's ONE ottawa senator who's doing it...where are the rest?

Alfi, Michalek, Greening, and Karlsson?

I'm talking over the years. Those guys are doing it right now (with exception of alfie, I'll give you that).

Michallica wrote:

NEELY wrote:

Michallica wrote:Poor spezza...damned if he puts up points and damned if he doesn't. Quite frankly, I don't give a damn until he puts in the same effort that he was putting in towards the end of last year.

At the same time, I'm not going to fault him for getting the majority of his points against bad teams. At least he's ONE ottawa senator who's doing it...where are the rest?

Alfi, Michalek, Greening, and Karlsson?

I'm talking over the years. Those guys are doing it right now (with exception of alfie, I'll give you that).

You talk to a lot of the educated fans and they will say pretty much the same thing, Spezza is a better player when he is playing a complete, hard working game than when he is just worried about offense.

I wholeheartedly agree....but I'm also not going to Dung on him for collecting points against weaker opponents or when the games don't matter. I will Dung on him for when he doesn't get points when it matters though.....I don't know if you see the difference there? That's all I'm really tr¥ing to say. I think the game of taking away credit from someone's performance is bogus.