ALL Spezza talk - to trade, not to trade, rant, rave etc.

SpezDispenser wrote:That's so incredibly unfair I have to laugh. Name me one player of Crosby or Ovechkin's caliber who are sauntering onto the free agent market. Kovalchuk? That'll be 10+ million apparently and he'll likely be signed before July 1.

Okay Rooney, I'll bite. I'll take Crosby or Ovechkin over Spezza. Can you make that happen?

I'd take any of those guys over Spezza too but the fact is that those players just aren't available.

I don't think Rooney should take the heat for that comparison either. I brought it up to make a point about how I don't think that those great players could have done a whole lot better here. Would they have done better? Yes, but their production would have even dipped under Hartsburg.

As you brought up, Heatley is the perfect example. Last year he struggled, this year he could win the Rocket Richard.

SpezDispenser wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:That is SUCH a dishonest turn in reasoning, SD. I'm embarrassed for you.

What, we're looking to Phillips, Gerber, Kelly, and Neil to be our primary offense now, like we do Spezza? We play these guys on the #1 line, surround them with the team's best talent, and give them #1 PP time? Hell no! These are all defensive players you're picking on (except Gerber, but there's no defending him or his contract, as you say). You don't measure these guys' contributions in offensive production, plain and simple, and it's dishonest of you to suggest so.

What's more, yes, Phillips has always lived up to his contract, then and now. Same with Neil, then and now. Fisher and Kelly had rough years last year, and EVERYONE noted it, often with extreme displeasure. Thing is, they've recovered nicely -- but what about Spezza?

This ISN'T about offensive production, and you know it. This is about the game Spezza plays, plain and simple. SSF said "I'm willing to settle for that kind of game if he produces." Then I said, "well, look, he ain't been producing." If the argument is, "we must keep Spezza because offense wins games, and he provides it" -- and, for the record, I personally would NEVER make a guy's stats the main basis of an argument as to why this or that player is essential to the team -- well then that argument doesn't hold a lot of water, now does it?

Don't twist things out of context here.

BS Rooney. Before we were saddled with Paddock and Hartsburg, Spezza was one of the top play-making centers in the league. He brought fear to every opponent we faced, and while he still made turnovers, he was incredibly adept at taking pucks back and then setting up Heatley or Alfredsson for goals. For the first time since Bryan Murray we have a real coach here - and unfortunately Spezza's been injured for 20 games of it and never really got going one way or the other. Actually, he probably went the wrong way, whether he was trying too hard or whether it was because his back is in deep trouble, no one really knows. He comes back and exhibits the kind of play that we've been waiting for for a long, long time. If you're not seeing a glimpse of the player he was before his back issues flared up, then I would suggest that you, like Neely, seem to have a pre-determined dislike for him. Which is fine, I don't really care who likes Spezza and who doesn't, but as long as he's producing at this rate, I find no reason, nor can I forecast any reason, why he would stop.

What do you have to say about Heatley? He has his worst professional season in history here last year, then goes to SJ and is in the running for the Rocket. Is that coincidence? No.

Yes, now it's his back issues, my personal hate of him, and my inability to see what he's done the last five games.

You do remember how there's absolutely no documentation anywhere saying that his back was injured this year? and how I defended Spezza till I was blue in the face for two years, against Neely? and how I've said, repeatedly, that Spezza HAS played great over the last five games, but the issue is that that's what we need to see from him, game in and game out, for a long time to come?

How can you not see how you're letting emotion, not reason, dictate your response? I have nothing personal against Spezza. I have long defended him. And I will defend him if he can just do what he's doing now, consistently. He's given us all so much reason to doubt he can, tho'.

As to the rest of this post, it doesn't address the issue I brought up at all, which was that your previous post was totally off-base in it's "Phillips and Neil are putting up a PPG, either" position.

Urkie wrote:

SpezDispenser wrote:That's so incredibly unfair I have to laugh. Name me one player of Crosby or Ovechkin's caliber who are sauntering onto the free agent market. Kovalchuk? That'll be 10+ million apparently and he'll likely be signed before July 1.

Okay Rooney, I'll bite. I'll take Crosby or Ovechkin over Spezza. Can you make that happen?

I'd take any of those guys over Spezza too but the fact is that those players just aren't available.

I don't think Rooney should take the heat for that comparison either. I brought it up to make a point about how I don't think that those great players could have done a whole lot better. Would they have done better? Yes, but there production would have even dipped under Hartsburg.

As you brought up, Heatley is the perfect example. Last year he struggled, this year he could win the Rocket Richard.

I can't tell you how sick that makes me-what a dirt bag.

SpezDispenser wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:
Sidney Crosby walked into a bigger disaster than we ever had here when he joined PIT, and he still managed to put up enormous numbers. Exact same for Ovechkin when he joined WAS. Kovalchuk has put up great numbers playing on a Dung team for years, too. And the list goes on and on. Elite players produce, no matter what's going on around them. You'd have to be living under a rock for your entire life not to notice this.

So, why is Spezza the exception? Or rather, why is it that the fact that Spezza IS the exception not stick out or bother anyone else, or at least raise alarm bells?

That's so incredibly unfair I have to laugh. Name me one player of Crosby or Ovechkin's caliber who are sauntering onto the free agent market. Kovalchuk? That'll be 10+ million apparently and he'll likely be signed before July 1.

Okay Rooney, I'll bite. I'll take Crosby or Ovechkin over Spezza. Can you make that happen?

Don't blame me, I didn't bring the comparison up.

now this is just getting funny

damnit urkie look what you've done

rooneypoo wrote:Yes, now it's his back issues, my personal hate of him, and my inability to see what he's done the last five games.

You do remember how there's absolutely no documentation anywhere saying that his back was injured this year? and how I defended Spezza till I was blue in the face for two years, against Neely? and how I've said, repeatedly, that Spezza HAS played great over the last five games, but the issue is that that's what we need to see from him, game in and game out, for a long time to come?

How can you not see how you're letting emotion, not reason, dictate your response? I have nothing personal against Spezza. I have long defended him. And I will defend him if he can just do what he's doing now, consistently. He's given us all so much reason to doubt he can, tho'.

As to the rest of this post, it doesn't address the issue I brought up at all, which was that your previous post was totally off-base in it's "Phillips and Neil are putting up a PPG, either" position.

My bottom line is that I would like to see some patience shown with Spezza. I have never once denied the fact that he would have to be traded if he continued not producing - or turning over, or not playing the game the way we know he needs to. I have doubts, but at the same time, we always have to have a whipping boy here. If it's not Spezza, then it's Gerber, if not Gerber, it's Redden, if not Redden it's someone else. Spezza has shown to us all that he has the talent to be a gamebreaker, not only in the past five games, but every year since the lockout - with the exception of the last two horrific years. My point about Phillips and Neil wasn't that they should be scoring a PPG, it was that if you look at them and their stats and play in the last two years, you'd be hardpressed to say they were worth anything approaching what they were making. The team has been awful until recently, from top to bottom, with the exception of Alfie. Now that we've turned the corner a bit, I would suggest heavily to everyone that we relax with Spezza and see what we've got for the duration of the season and hopefully into the playoffs.

That's it. That's how I feel, emotion level fairly even keeled. Just don't compare Spezza to Crosby or Ovechkin or Zetterberg or Datsyuk etc., because you won't like what you see.

Also, you know that I've supported more than once trade proposal involving Spezza, I would never utter the phrase untouchable about him. I know you're concerned Rooney - and I like that, it shows you're a passionate fan, but we need to support Spezza and believe in Clouston and Murray to make the right decision if need be. Constantly complaining about his game isn't helping anything IMO.

111519 wrote:now this is just getting funny

damnit urkie look what you've done

It's not an all out war or anything, I've known Rooney long enough to respect his opinions. I'm listening, I'm taking stock of what he's saying. I might disagree, but that's what makes this site great, we're allowed to say how we feel.

I gotta run to my office hours and prepare for class, but I'll end with this:

Spezza has to prove that this team is better off with him than without him. Right now, over the last 5 games, that has been the case, which is great news for him and for the team and for his boosters. But for far too many games over the last 2 years, that hasn't been the case and you're lying to yourself and everybody if you say otherwise. If he can play consistent and keep doing what he's doing, he will earn the respect many here undeservingly give him, and which I lost for him not so long ago. But 5 games is not enough. I'm not sure that the next 30 games is enough either, but given that that NMC is looming, that's all the time we have.

rooneypoo wrote:I gotta run to my office hours and prepare for class, but I'll end with this:

Spezza has to prove that this team is better off with him than without him. Right now, over the last 5 games, that has been the case, which is great news for him and for the team and for his boosters. But for far too many games over the last 2 years, that hasn't been the case and you're lying to yourself and everybody if you say otherwise. If he can play consistent and keep doing what he's doing, he will earn the respect many here undeservingly give him, and which I lost for him not so long ago. But 5 games is not enough. I'm not sure that the next 30 games is enough either, but given that that NMC is looming, that's all the time we have.

Good ending post. Let's say that that's a perfect way of looking at things.

111519 wrote:now this is just getting funny

damnit urkie look what you've done

What? What did I do.

Seriously, I'm just glad that Spezza is playing well now and for the first time in a long time I'm actually excited about Sens games.

Throwing dung at Spezza doesn't seem right to me right now. Not when he's playing so well. If that changes then so be it but why can't we just enjoy the way he's playing right now? I know I am.

SpezDispenser wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:Yes, now it's his back issues, my personal hate of him, and my inability to see what he's done the last five games.

You do remember how there's absolutely no documentation anywhere saying that his back was injured this year? and how I defended Spezza till I was blue in the face for two years, against Neely? and how I've said, repeatedly, that Spezza HAS played great over the last five games, but the issue is that that's what we need to see from him, game in and game out, for a long time to come?

How can you not see how you're letting emotion, not reason, dictate your response? I have nothing personal against Spezza. I have long defended him. And I will defend him if he can just do what he's doing now, consistently. He's given us all so much reason to doubt he can, tho'.

As to the rest of this post, it doesn't address the issue I brought up at all, which was that your previous post was totally off-base in it's "Phillips and Neil are putting up a PPG, either" position.

My bottom line is that I would like to see some patience shown with Spezza. I have never once denied the fact that he would have to be traded if he continued not producing - or turning over, or not playing the game the way we know he needs to. I have doubts, but at the same time, we always have to have a whipping boy here. If it's not Spezza, then it's Gerber, if not Gerber, it's Redden, if not Redden it's someone else. Spezza has shown to us all that he has the talent to be a gamebreaker, not only in the past five games, but every year since the lockout - with the exception of the last two horrific years. My point about Phillips and Neil wasn't that they should be scoring a PPG, it was that if you look at them and their stats and play in the last two years, you'd be hardpressed to say they were worth anything approaching what they were making. The team has been awful until recently, from top to bottom, with the exception of Alfie. Now that we've turned the corner a bit, I would suggest heavily to everyone that we relax with Spezza and see what we've got for the duration of the season and hopefully into the playoffs.

That's it. That's how I feel, emotion level fairly even keeled. Just don't compare Spezza to Crosby or Ovechkin or Zetterberg or Datsyuk etc., because you won't like what you see.

Also, you know that I've supported more than once trade proposal involving Spezza, I would never utter the phrase untouchable about him. I know you're concerned Rooney - and I like that, it shows you're a passionate fan, but we need to support Spezza and believe in Clouston and Murray to make the right decision if need be. Constantly complaining about his game isn't helping anything IMO.

Just a quick one-time as I head out: we don't have the time you want to be patient. The clock is ticking. This is year 7 for Spezza; he turns 27, and he gets that NMC.

And we HAVE been patient. I was, anyway. It wasn't until two months ago that I decided, hell, we will HAVE to do something about Spezza if he doesn't shape up ASAP.

Urkie wrote:What? What did I do.

Seriously, I'm just glad that Spezza is playing well now and for the first time in a long time I'm actually excited about Sens games.

Throwing dung at Spezza doesn't seem right to me right now. Not when he's playing so well. If that changes then so be it but why can't we just enjoy the way he's playing right now? I know I am.

Again, good post. This is not about me vs Rooney, or us vs anyone, this is about hoping that Spezza can continue his strong play, because if he does, this team is even better than it was without him, and that's exciting to any Sens fan.

marakh wrote:ON the other hand, the way he's playing now compared to at the beginning of the season, and considering the big drop off before the injury, one can make a case about his back problems dragging him down.

Gord and Dean mentioned last night that it was actually his groin.

rooneypoo wrote:Just a quick one-time as I head out: we don't have the time you want to be patient. The clock is ticking. This is year 7 for Spezza; he turns 27, and he gets that NMC.

And we HAVE been patient. I was, anyway. It wasn't until two months ago that I decided, hell, we will HAVE to do something about Spezza if he doesn't shape up ASAP.

The next 30 games and the playoffs will tell us a story IMO.

By the way, when did Neely get Rooney's account password? And learn English?

wprager wrote:By the way, when did Neely get Rooney's account password? And learn English?

I might be wrong, but Neely's English has dramatically improved - and his grammar too. Hmmm...

wprager wrote:

marakh wrote:ON the other hand, the way he's playing now compared to at the beginning of the season, and considering the big drop off before the injury, one can make a case about his back problems dragging him down.

Gord and Dean mentioned last night that it was actually his groin.

Devo who talked to Richardson also said it.

Ya, well the new g/f's family is all teachers and even when I'm blogging away she makes me proof read a lot... Im whipped already. She literally nags about my blogging! Better 1/2 I guess...

Anyways, not one person will hear me complain about Spezza if he plays the way he did last night both offensivly and defensivly. He was on the last 30 seconds on that game and made a huge play (whether he won the faceoof or not, that's not really a mistake or a lack of effort). He made a huge play that might have saved the tieing goal and got it up to Alfi. Smart and hard play, that's what should be expected out of him night in and night out, no ifs and or buts, and then I and a lot of other people will praise him and rightfully so!

NOW! We will see how he reacts when things are not going his way and what happens then. A big knock on Spezza has always been "he's great when the team is great and packs it in when things dont go his way". That will tell the tale in terms of Spezza and what he means to this team. He needs to produce and play hard when things just are not bouncing his or the teams way. The Jason Spezza we saw last night was the Spezza that this team needs, the Spezza that hangs his head and smashes his stick when he cant fight through checking is not. Things wont be this perfect forever, lets see how he respondes to adversity, up until this point it's been anything but encouraging. The Sens will hit a slump or be pushed to how ever far their character can take them, will Spezza responde or wait for others to get the ball rolling again? That is what happend on this current streak, he joined when the getting was good.