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2012 NHL Draft

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5412012 NHL Draft - Page 37 Empty Re: 2012 NHL Draft Sun Jun 17, 2012 11:45 pm

spader


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Big Ev wrote:
rooneypoo wrote:Suddenly less concerned if we move our 1st round pick this year...

http://www.ottawasun.com/2012/06/16/draft-could-be-weakest-in-years

Well firstly I'd look at the writer of the article. I'm not sure he has the greatest sources in the hockey world.

Secondly, I find that teams' opinion of a draft depend on where they end up. Team picking Top 5? "Draft is amazing at the top". Team with no pick at all in the first round? "Draft is weak". Teams picking in the middle? "Not the deepest, drops off right around where we pick". Pierre Dorion of the Sens who hold the 15th overall? "We like 14 guys". Hmm what a coincidence Pierre. Also, it seems that every year the next year's draft is the "stronger one".

Anyways, I think the statement that there is no Ryan Nugent-Hopkins or Gabriel Landeskog in the draft is false. The top end of this draft is just as good as last year, although I do prefer last year's. Dorion himself said it is an ok draft.

At the end of the day, you will get a good player with your 1st if you have a good staff. I think it's really that simple. The weak draft excuse is used by teams who need the excuse. Just my opinion.

With the NHL draft, I don't think anyone can be 100% confident saying this draft is weak or this draft is good. Everything changes. These players are 17-18 years old. It's not like the NFL or NBA where all the players are stepping right into the league right after being drafted.

Based on who I've seen and heard about, you're getting a good player at 15 for sure.

stempniaksen wrote:There are no "sexy" Canadian picks like a Taylor Hall, or Tyler Seguin or Ryan Nugent Hopinks, so that will automatically make it look weaker in some peoples eyes. I think the defensive depth of this draft is better than recent years though, and there are still some top end guys availabel high int he draft.


I think part of the problem is that there's Nail and then everyone else. The fact that there isn't any competition for that top spot makes it seem weaker as well.

Meh. I don't know enough about the prospects to know, but I've only heard that this draft is weaker than previous years, so I'd assume that's true.

Also, Ev, that sentence that I bolded is absolutely true and absolutely irrelevant. It isn't about being 100%--of course no one can be 100% sure about the unknown quantities in the draft--the fact is that it isn't just GMs saying that the draft class is weak. Everyone seems to be making that same judgement. Of course no one is 100% sure, but it certainly sounds like this draft class will be weaker than others.

5422012 NHL Draft - Page 37 Empty Re: 2012 NHL Draft Sun Jun 17, 2012 11:59 pm

spader


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FWIW, there's a poll at the end of the article that Dr. Poo posted. The question is "Do you think that this is the weakest draft in years?" The answer options are "yes," "no," and "unsure." Responses are split evenly at 33% each. I guess there isn't as much of a consensus as I suggested.

Who knows? Shrug I guess we'll see.

5432012 NHL Draft - Page 37 Empty Re: 2012 NHL Draft Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:00 am

Ev


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There is competition for that top spot. Many people believe Galchenyuk may end up being the better player, and that he might have been 1st overall if he wasn't injured. Also, it looks like the Oilers might be selecting Ryan Murray anyway. Part of why people are saying it's weak is in part due to the fact that not everyone is in love with Yakupov.

Point is, guys like Redline Report say the draft is weak almost every year. Last year's draft was supposed to be weaker than this one, yet now 1 year later, it's looking pretty damn deep compared to 2012. You've got studs like Brandon Saad and Ty Rattie and Shane Prince etc. being 2nd round picks.

I bet the same will happen next year too. "This draft is weaker than once thought. 2012 is so much stronger".

With the amount of injuries in this draft class, teams are going to get steals. Once the players hit the ice and truly develop, the class is gonna look better. It might not be the best, but I don't think it's weak like 2007 for example.

5442012 NHL Draft - Page 37 Empty Re: 2012 NHL Draft Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:02 am

Ev

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spader wrote:FWIW, there's a poll at the end of the article that Dr. Poo posted. The question is "Do you think that this is the weakest draft in years?" The answer options are "yes," "no," and "unsure." Responses are split evenly at 33% each. I guess there isn't as much of a consensus as I suggested.

Who knows? Shrug I guess we'll see.

Well most of the voters most likely have no idea what they're voting on so I for one wouldn't use this poll in a scientific article. Sarcasm

5452012 NHL Draft - Page 37 Empty Re: 2012 NHL Draft Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:21 am

spader

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Big Ev wrote:
spader wrote:FWIW, there's a poll at the end of the article that Dr. Poo posted. The question is "Do you think that this is the weakest draft in years?" The answer options are "yes," "no," and "unsure." Responses are split evenly at 33% each. I guess there isn't as much of a consensus as I suggested.

Who knows? Shrug I guess we'll see.

Well most of the voters most likely have no idea what they're voting on so I for one wouldn't use this poll in a scientific article. Sarcasm

Ha. My only point was that I said in my previous post that basically everyone is calling this a weak draft, but the poll implies something different. I wasn't trying to pass it off as evidence of anything.

5462012 NHL Draft - Page 37 Empty Re: 2012 NHL Draft Mon Jun 18, 2012 7:35 am

Riprock

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Could Edmonton realistically trade down to #2 with Columbus, and make it worthwhile for themselves? What would it likely cost to move up one spot to #1 overall for Columbus?

Also, just thinking about Lindros since TSN had an article on his draft day, and that the best thing for Quebec was trading him a year later at the draft. Quebec had 3 #1 picks in a row, much like Edmonton, and look what happened for Quebec a few years later. It took trading one of their #1 picks to get a lot of the pieces that put the franchise over the top.

For Edmonton, is that even possible? Trades like that rarely happen now. It'd be like Winnipeg getting Evander Kane and Zach Bogosian for Taylor Hall.

5472012 NHL Draft - Page 37 Empty Re: 2012 NHL Draft Mon Jun 18, 2012 7:48 am

rooneypoo

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Big Ev wrote:
rooneypoo wrote:Suddenly less concerned if we move our 1st round pick this year...

http://www.ottawasun.com/2012/06/16/draft-could-be-weakest-in-years

Well firstly I'd look at the writer of the article. I'm not sure he has the greatest sources in the hockey world.

Secondly, I find that teams' opinion of a draft depend on where they end up. Team picking Top 5? "Draft is amazing at the top". Team with no pick at all in the first round? "Draft is weak". Teams picking in the middle? "Not the deepest, drops off right around where we pick". Pierre Dorion of the Sens who hold the 15th overall? "We like 14 guys". Hmm what a coincidence Pierre. Also, it seems that every year the next year's draft is the "stronger one".

Anyways, I think the statement that there is no Ryan Nugent-Hopkins or Gabriel Landeskog in the draft is false. The top end of this draft is just as good as last year, although I do prefer last year's. Dorion himself said it is an ok draft.

At the end of the day, you will get a good player with your 1st if you have a good staff. I think it's really that simple. The weak draft excuse is used by teams who need the excuse. Just my opinion.

With the NHL draft, I don't think anyone can be 100% confident saying this draft is weak or this draft is good. Everything changes. These players are 17-18 years old. It's not like the NFL or NBA where all the players are stepping right into the league right after being drafted.

Based on who I've seen and heard about, you're getting a good player at 15 for sure.

On the first point, I'm Garrioch's biggest critic, but what concerns me more is the quotations he's getting from those GMs, from both conferences. When you quote someone anonymously, too, there's nothing for the speaker to gain -- no gamesmanship, no headgames, no making excuses.

On no Nugent-Hopkins: if I were the team with the #1 pick, I would not be stoked about picking a Russian. Say what you will about the guy's individual character, but the flight risk is very real, and that will never go away as long as the KHL exists and is trying to lure its own to the league. If I'm picking #1, I want a sure thing, and how sure can I be when I can't even be sure that he'll play his full career in the NHL?

Anyway, I have no doubt that we'll get a good player -- but I'm also less opposed to the idea of moving the pick if the right deal comes along.

5482012 NHL Draft - Page 37 Empty Re: 2012 NHL Draft Mon Jun 18, 2012 7:54 am

rooneypoo

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Big Ev wrote:There is competition for that top spot. Many people believe Galchenyuk may end up being the better player, and that he might have been 1st overall if he wasn't injured. Also, it looks like the Oilers might be selecting Ryan Murray anyway. Part of why people are saying it's weak is in part due to the fact that not everyone is in love with Yakupov.

Point is, guys like Redline Report say the draft is weak almost every year. Last year's draft was supposed to be weaker than this one, yet now 1 year later, it's looking pretty damn deep compared to 2012. You've got studs like Brandon Saad and Ty Rattie and Shane Prince etc. being 2nd round picks.

I bet the same will happen next year too. "This draft is weaker than once thought. 2012 is so much stronger".

With the amount of injuries in this draft class, teams are going to get steals. Once the players hit the ice and truly develop, the class is gonna look better. It might not be the best, but I don't think it's weak like 2007 for example.

Pssh. Total media non-event, just like when there were "questions" if Tavares would go 1st overall. Nail at #1 is pretty much the safest bet going.

The injury point is an interesting one, and that could be skewing things. And I guess it's important to point out that what we're talking about here is the PERCEPTION and not the actual thing. No one can know the actual value of each players and the draft as a whole -- but it would appear that both are being perceived by GMs and scouts as weak.

At any rate, I have no doubt that BM and co. can get us a good player at #15 -- I just wonder how good the best players from this draft will turn out to be. Granted, I am not a prospect guy.

5492012 NHL Draft - Page 37 Empty Re: 2012 NHL Draft Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:14 am

SeawaySensFan

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Garrioch is fine. I've been reading about the Senators for nearly 20 years and he's pretty plugged-in AFAIC.

5502012 NHL Draft - Page 37 Empty Re: 2012 NHL Draft Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:39 am

Riprock

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Rooney, I understand completely the risk of picking Nail, much like you say, but you also acknowledge he is the best player - so what does one do?

I think Edmonton may be better off trading down to get Ryan Murray, but how do they do that? They may want more than teams are willing to pay.

5512012 NHL Draft - Page 37 Empty Re: 2012 NHL Draft Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:44 am

SeawaySensFan

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Riprock wrote:Rooney, I understand completely the risk of picking Nail, much like you say, but you also acknowledge he is the best player - so what does one do?

I think Edmonton may be better off trading down to get Ryan Murray, but how do they do that? They may want more than teams are willing to pay.

Isn't Murray rated Top 2 or 3 anyway? Why wouldn't Edmonton just pick the guy?

5522012 NHL Draft - Page 37 Empty Re: 2012 NHL Draft Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:02 am

rooneypoo

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Riprock wrote:Rooney, I understand completely the risk of picking Nail, much like you say, but you also acknowledge he is the best player - so what does one do?

I think Edmonton may be better off trading down to get Ryan Murray, but how do they do that? They may want more than teams are willing to pay.

I wasn't really thinking of EDM here -- I was more interested in what might be available, quality-wise, for the Sens at #15, and am starting to feel more open to trading the pick if the right deal comes along (for a top 4 D or top-6 forward).

If I'm EDM, tho', I do move that pick to CLB and take Murray. As a GM, I would personally never take a Russian with a 1st round pick -- the flight risk is too much. Your 1st rounder is supposed to be as close to a sure thing as you can get. Not only that, but for EDM's particular situation, they need to start building a back end, ASAP.

5532012 NHL Draft - Page 37 Empty Re: 2012 NHL Draft Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:05 am

Riprock

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Yeah I was pushing towards that comment about not picking a Russian #1 - and I get that. I mean, no matter what the player says, he owes them nothing and will ultimately do what he wants.

Thus the problem lies with Edmonton - they either take who they want #1 or they try to sell that pick.

5542012 NHL Draft - Page 37 Empty Re: 2012 NHL Draft Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:08 am

rooneypoo

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Riprock wrote:Yeah I was pushing towards that comment about not picking a Russian #1 - and I get that. I mean, no matter what the player says, he owes them nothing and will ultimately do what he wants.

Thus the problem lies with Edmonton - they either take who they want #1 or they try to sell that pick.


I would sell it to CLB, if they'd take it. Pick up, say, CLB's 1st, a 2nd or 3rd, and Methot, or maybe CLB's picks 1-3 or 1-4. Even that "bargain" price gives EDM more assets, avoids the uncertainty of a drafting a flight risk, and allows them to start building that back end.

5552012 NHL Draft - Page 37 Empty Re: 2012 NHL Draft Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:09 am

Hoags

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Yakupov doesn't strike me as much of a flight risk, Grigorenko maybe.

Yakupov is BPA, Oilers should take him unless they can get a trade for some young D-men. Can always make a trade later as well.

As for Garrioch's article, they seem to say that every year. There's less hyped players and "sure bets" but I am sure some gems will emerge within a few years. Dorion and his team have like 15 players on their radar, if it was such a bad draft, they'd have less than half of that.

5562012 NHL Draft - Page 37 Empty Re: 2012 NHL Draft Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:11 am

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If I am Edmonton I just pick Murray. It's not worth it to pick Yakapov. If I am Columbus I try and flip with Montreal at that point as well, they have a few extra second rounders and some other pieces they can throw in.

I think this will be a good draft for the teams drafting in the 20-30 ranges because it's deep, but I think they guys getting the top 3 picks this year won't be getting a star.

5572012 NHL Draft - Page 37 Empty Re: 2012 NHL Draft Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:33 am

Riprock

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I don't even know if Columbus would pick him, with their history of Russians.

5582012 NHL Draft - Page 37 Empty Re: 2012 NHL Draft Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:36 am

Hoags

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Riprock wrote:I don't even know if Columbus would pick him, with their history of Russians.


Yakupov isn't like any of the Russians they had before, he's been playing in NA for a while. Plus CBJ has Tyutin and Nikitin so he'd have some company if he does get homesick.

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