Debating point: Are the Leafs the NHL's version of baseball's Pittsburgh Pirates?

http://blogs.thescore.com/nhl/2010/08/26/the-noncompetitive-advantage/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+HockeyOrDie+%28Hockey+or+Die%29&utm_content=Google+Feedfetcher

Pretty interesting blog written by Scott Lewis. I figured it's slow enough in the hockey world that we can have ourselves a good old fashioned debate about this. Interested to see what you guys have to say.

Without seeing a breakdown of the source of the profit. I can only go on what I've read and heard in seperate circumstances and conclude that the Pirates are legitimately a "have not" team. It seems a substantial part of their revenue is drawn from the league itself.

Of course, Toronto comes by their wealth honestly, through revenues they generate on their own.

In both situations, the fan is the victim. Pirate Fan has a sucky team year after year. Same for the Leafs (thankfully).

Again, there's a difference. Leafs management is legitimately inept when it comes to building a team. The Pirates, are brilliant at drafting great talent and dumping them for still more picks when they are ready to break through. This, in my opinion, is reprehensible.

Oh yeah, and what about the poor bastard who's taxes went to building that ballpark for the Pirates? He probably doesn't even have a job anymore since all the steel production went to India. That's where the situation goes from frustrating to just plain wrong.

Yeah, I'm not sure they're the same. Toronto has badly wanted to win for a while and suffered through the 'quick fix' issue the NHL sometimes has. They suck at drafting, but the fact that Burke went out and acquired Kessel, Versteeg, Beachemin etc. shows that they want to win and will spend $$ to do it.

The Pirates never do anything but draft players, then trade them when they're about to make too much cash. They're an embarrassment.

Toronto = the New York Mets...they spend lots of money and try put a successful team on the ice/field, but they still fail.

Big Ev wrote:Toronto = the New York Mets...they spend lots of money and try put a successful team on the ice/field, but they still fail.

Perfect comparison.

Sounds like the Toronto Raptors.

At least the Mets won a World Series 24 years ago

The Raps are a little different. They don't have the freedom of signing whoever they want since nobody wants to play there. If you meant the Pirates sound like the Raps, then yes that makes sense.

I think the parallel that the blogger is trying to point out is that the Pirates are duplicitous in their ability to generate profit and that the Leafs are turning a massive profit by profiteering from the market.

So essentially, he's saying that neither really has a paramount reason to improve substantially despite their recent records of futility.

And I kind of agree with him. I think it's absolutely embarrassing for Toronto fans to have to pay average ticket prices that are astronomically higher than the rest of the league's to watch sub-par, mostly losing hockey.

And it would appear that the Pirates, despite being considerably cheaper to attend, are of the same mindset because of the money they receive in equalization payments from TV and merchandise revenues.

So I think another good question to ask would be why the respective leagues haven't done anything to address the two questions: 1. Why hasn't the MLB reviewed their revenue sharing agreement where teams that refuse to address their poor on-field product are limited substantially in the amount of money they receive in revenue sharing? and 2. Why hasn't the NHL intervened in the oft-ridiculous live gate pricing that some teams are allowed to get away with?

Big Ev wrote:At least the Mets won a World Series 24 years ago

The Raps are a little different. They don't have the freedom of signing whoever they want since nobody wants to play there. If you meant the Pirates sound like the Raps, then yes that makes sense.

I don't think that's true at all. The Raptors aren't anything at all like the Pirates. They have given the big bucks to their star draftees over the years: Vince Carter, Chris Bosh. The real problem lies in the fact that for the longest time they were run by an imbecile GM who has one of the poorest drafting records in history. Couple that with the return to power of teams like Boston and Orlando plus previous Eastern powers like the Nets, Sixers, Pacers and Pistons and it's easy to see why the Raptors haven't had much playoff success to date.

Also, quite bizarrely, they seem to lose out on a lot of players in free agency because no one wants to come play in Toronto for several reasons that I'd imagine include: income taxation, the hassle of applying for work visas for non-Canadian born players, the cold winters and a perceived lack of a competitive team.

PKC wrote:I think the parallel that the blogger is trying to point out is that the Pirates are duplicitous in their ability to generate profit and that the Leafs are turning a massive profit by profiteering from the market.

So essentially, he's saying that neither really has a paramount reason to improve substantially despite their recent records of futility.

And I kind of agree with him. I think it's absolutely embarrassing for Toronto fans to have to pay average ticket prices that are astronomically higher than the rest of the league's to watch sub-par, mostly losing hockey.

And it would appear that the Pirates, despite being considerably cheaper to attend, are of the same mindset because of the money they receive in equalization payments from TV and merchandise revenues.

So I think another good question to ask would be why the respective leagues haven't done anything to address the two questions: 1. Why hasn't the MLB reviewed their revenue sharing agreement where teams that refuse to address their poor on-field product are limited substantially in the amount of money they receive in revenue sharing? and 2. Why hasn't the NHL intervened in the oft-ridiculous live gate pricing that some teams are allowed to get away with?

Yeah, that point prevails for sure, the Leafs - like the Pirates - don't have to improve their teams because they're being funded by the league and by fans who'll blindly support them no matter what. The difference is that the Leafs will sell out no matter what, while the Pirates draw ~20,000 per game (which is inflated IMO), so they don't even care if people show up.

Big Ev wrote:At least the Mets won a World Series 24 years ago

The Raps are a little different. They don't have the freedom of signing whoever they want since nobody wants to play there. If you meant the Pirates sound like the Raps, then yes that makes sense.

Ya, I meant trading superstars because you don't want to pay them/they want to leave. McGrady, Carter, Bosh, Mighty Mouse...

Yeah but they are like the Pirates in the sense that they draft star players, but they never end up keeping them (Bosh, Carter, McGrady).

and the same can be said that the Pirates GM's over the years were idiots as well...I think Colangelo is a good GM so hopefully the Raps can become competitive again, and soon.

Big Ev wrote:Yeah but they are like the Pirates in the sense that they draft star players, but they never end up keeping them (Bosh, Carter, McGrady).

and the same can be said that the Pirates GM's over the years were idiots as well...I think Colangelo is a good GM so hopefully the Raps can become competitive again, and soon.

Not true, their drafting acumen has been quite remarkable given the limited amount of available resources they have compared to other teams. Not having the money available to sign those players is completely opposite to not drafting those players in the first place.