Who is the better GM Burke or Murray

My vote is murray of course after the bottom fell out in 09, he started to put the ship back on course through good drafting and player movement.We may not have agreed on some moves he has done but it, seemed to be allways motivated to helping the team get better .His patient style of management and outside the box thinking have allowed us to once again look forward to great hockey here in ottawa. My take on BB is not so kind. Toronto was a mess when he took over .And instead of trying to do the right thing which was be patient and draft and develop a core group of players he did the exact opposite . Most teams that have missed the playoffs for four years. Arent looking to one first round pick let alone two.I will give him credit on aquiring phaneuf for nothing. But giving up the number two overall a second plus a first next year speaks volumes to how little patiance he truly has.

I gave you a +1 because I think this topic will yield some interesting conversations but I disagree with some of the Burke assessment. I don't think that the kessel deal was that bad.

When the deal was made, the leafs were "supposed and expected" to do much better than they actually did so the 2nd overall pick was probably never really a considerationi is Burke's worst nightmares.

Equally bad (or probably worst) was Murray trading Mezsaros to Tampa Bay to avoid the "promised" offer sheet. If he had let them make the offer sheet, we'd have drafted "what's his name" ????

EDIT : oh and don't get me wrong; I really like the job Murray's done.

I'm not sure how a GM who badly misjudged his own team as a playoff contender, finishing 2nd last and trading 2 first rounders for Kessel giving up Seguin in the process could possibly win over Murray.

If you can't tell the difference between a playoff team and a 2nd-last in the NHL ..

TheAvatar wrote:I gave you a +1 because I think this topic will yield some interesting conversations but I disagree with some of the Burke assessment. I don't think that the kessel deal was that bad.

When the deal was made, the leafs were "supposed and expected" to do much better than they actually did so the 2nd overall pick was probably never really a considerationi is Burke's worst nightmares.

Equally bad (or probably worst) was Murray trading Mezsaros to Tampa Bay to avoid the "promised" offer sheet. If he had let them make the offer sheet, we'd have drafted "what's his name" ????

EDIT : oh and don't get me wrong; I really like the job Murray's done.

An offer sheet for mezsaros didnt seem to add up when he said it back then, I think he said that to quell some of the fair weather fans that didnt see mezsaros for what he was. A soon to be overpaid product of the great surrounding d around him defenseman Tampa ,s management group at the time were questionable but i dont know if they were crazy. As for BB i was a little harsh i guess But i love to hate all things leaf related .Its like stress theapy to me i need help

Hoags wrote:I'm not sure how a GM who badly misjudged his own team as a playoff contender, finishing 2nd last and trading 2 first rounders for Kessel giving up Seguin in the process could possibly win over Murray.

If you can't tell the difference between a playoff team and a 2nd-last in the NHL ..

Yeah its more about me i guess. Gotta get my leaf hate fix on I want payback in the playoffs i hope they make it and we mop the floor with them .

Hoags wrote:I'm not sure how a GM who badly misjudged his own team as a playoff contender, finishing 2nd last and trading 2 first rounders for Kessel giving up Seguin in the process could possibly win over Murray.

If you can't tell the difference between a playoff team and a 2nd-last in the NHL ..

How can anyone argue with that assessment? That's bang on.

They are both very good GMs. They seem to have different philosophies but what makes them both excel is that they have a plan.

Burke looks to establish very good goaltending and a deep multi-faceted D corps, followed by 2 scoring lines and 2 depth lines which must include a fighter. He wants his teams to play agressive and be physical, bordering on violent. His decision to make the Kessel deal is right up his alley, he will do whatever it takes to get the player he covets and he will have no regrets. He uses all methods to obtain the players he thinks he needs, such as trade, drafting, UFA and undrafted FA's. He treats his players with respect and is a man of his word even if he is far too glory hungry.

Murray's MO is to build through drafting first and foremost. He assembles his scouting staff and listens to them. He targets the players he wants and is willing to move around at the draft to get them. Once Murray drafts you, he ties himself to you. His trade acquisitions often are players he has drafted while with other organizations. No matter where he has been he has wanted to play an aggressive forechecking style. He is much more cautious when it comes to giving up his assets than Burke, although he will take a chance once in a while if he feels it could dramatically alter the teams fortunes.

Murray seems better able to navigate the Salary Cap than Burke. Burke doesn't seem to get tied to "his guys" like Murray. Burke picks a coach and dicates style, while Murray appears to want to let the coaches coach. Murray is a better drafter, Burke is better at trading. Burke is an egomaniac, Murray sometimes can't keep his mouth shut.

Both are winners, but both can make mistakes.

Are you going to tell me that you fully expected the leafs to finish 2nd to last that year? Ok bud.

In theory though, Burke has a Cup ring and Murray doesn't. Burke's both really exciting (Phaneuf, Giguere, Versteeg) and really dangerous (Kessel vs the picks, Phaneuf, Komisarek, Armstrong etc.)

RobbyJ wrote:They are both very good GMs. They seem to have different philosophies but what makes them both excel is that they have a plan.

Burke looks to establish very good goaltending and a deep multi-faceted D corps, followed by 2 scoring lines and 2 depth lines which must include a fighter. He wants his teams to play agressive and be physical, bordering on violent. His decision to make the Kessel deal is right up his alley, he will do whatever it takes to get the player he covets and he will have no regrets. He uses all methods to obtain the players he thinks he needs, such as trade, drafting, UFA and undrafted FA's. He treats his players with respect and is a man of his word even if he is far too glory hungry.

Murray's MO is to build through drafting first and foremost. He assembles his scouting staff and listens to them. He targets the players he wants and is willing to move around at the draft to get them. Once Murray drafts you, he ties himself to you. His trade acquisitions often are players he has drafted while with other organizations. No matter where he has been he has wanted to play an aggressive forechecking style. He is much more cautious when it comes to giving up his assets than Burke, although he will take a chance once in a while if he feels it could dramatically alter the teams fortunes.

Murray seems better able to navigate the Salary Cap than Burke. Burke doesn't seem to get tied to "his guys" like Murray. Burke picks a coach and dicates style, while Murray appears to want to let the coaches coach. Murray is a better drafter, Burke is better at trading. Burke is an egomaniac, Murray sometimes can't keep his mouth shut.

Both are winners, but both can make mistakes.

Damn thats good

TheAvatar wrote:Are you going to tell me that you fully expected the leafs to finish 2nd to last that year? Ok bud.

Nope i thought for sure they would make it too .I was just trying to show the differences in style by the gm,s Over confidant and brash with BB .Slow and steady with murray

TheAvatar wrote:Are you going to tell me that you fully expected the leafs to finish 2nd to last that year? Ok bud.

You're 100% right, it's true, no one saw that. Heck, I lost a 24 of beer on it - and I almost never bet unless I'm sure.

But it *did* happen, you know? That's what's gonna follow Burke around for a long time I think.

SpezDispenser wrote:

TheAvatar wrote:Are you going to tell me that you fully expected the leafs to finish 2nd to last that year? Ok bud.

You're 100% right, it's true, no one saw that. Heck, I lost a 24 of beer on it - and I almost never bet unless I'm sure.

But it *did* happen, you know? That's what's gonna follow Burke around for a long time I think.

You lost a case of beer, real beer on if the leafs were going to make the playoffs You Spezdespenser a big contributer of this great sens chat site .Oh man i need to lie down i dont feel right

Burke has been good IMO. Obviously they might have been better off without the Kessel deal, but it's not even remotely like, say, the Rask for Raycroft deal was. Kessel is at worst a #2 forward IMO, and he's got pretty high offensive potential.

He's certainly an aggressive GM and he's made some "buy low, sell high" trades that have high boom potential (Ian White for Dion Phaneuf). Getting Giguere for Toskala and Blake was a nice move, and Gustavsson and Bozak both look like signings that will pay off immensely. I also like that, while he has dealt away draft picks like previous Leaf GMs, there is a clear focus on building a young team with a young core.

Granted, he hasn't been perfect and the Kubina for Exelby deal was pretty atrocious.

I like quite a bit of what Murray's done, especially drafting-wise, but I also feel like he had more to work with in inheriting a team that made the Stanley Cup Finals.

TheAvatar wrote:I gave you a +1 because I think this topic will yield some interesting conversations but I disagree with some of the Burke assessment. I don't think that the kessel deal was that bad.

When the deal was made, the leafs were "supposed and expected" to do much better than they actually did so the 2nd overall pick was probably never really a considerationi is Burke's worst nightmares.

Equally bad (or probably worst) was Murray trading Mezsaros to Tampa Bay to avoid the "promised" offer sheet. If he had let them make the offer sheet, we'd have drafted "what's his name" ????

EDIT : oh and don't get me wrong; I really like the job Murray's done.

I don't think it's ever been proven that they were going to throw him an offer sheet. Speculation. And while you may *say* Toronto didn't expect to be that bad, the reality is that *that* in itself is as much an indictment of bad management as the deal itself. There was not a single person here that though the deal was remotely good. While it turned out much. much worse than anyone could have imagined, it was soundly ridiculed here right from the start.