GAME DAY: Ottawa Senators @ Pittsburgh Penguins - 7:00pm ET - Thu. Jan. 28. 2010

rooneypoo wrote:

SpezDispenser wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:
Spezza isn't a negative, I'd say. But at $7 mil / 7 years, he's got to be more than than. He's got to be a positive. The fact that we do just fine without him on a consistent basis speaks volumes.

I don't know how you can get any comfort from sentences like "the team doesn't hinge on Spezza" and "he may well be the most expensive complimentary player in the NHL." That's called "damning with faint praise," my friend. Your own defences of Spezza are making the argument to consider moving Spezza all the stronger.

I never said I wasn't open to trading him, just that we could run into problems if we do depending on who we get back.

Present me a list of names that could be acquired for him and then we'll have a better idea of if he can go or not.

I don't have the time at the moment to go through an exhaustive list, but I think you probably trade Spezza for youth (you're not going to get a #1 centre in return -- that's why any team that is interested in Spezza, is interested in Spezza), and then look to the FA market to help fill the void for 2/3 years. Teams like EDM (Gagner+?), ATL if they lose Kovalchuk (Little++?), STL (probably not Macdonald, but Berglund+?), etc., might have interest.

I'm really not all that panicked at the thought of replacing Spezza with a Mike Ribiero-esque player. That's basically what we have at the moment, for all intents and purposes, but for twice the price and twice the term. I don't buy the concern about the "who's our #1 centre, then?" thing, either. This team has 3 lines that play and score on any given night, plus a mean-Donkey 4th that can also score. That's what you want -- not one big line anchored by one big centre. Fisher + Regin + mystery FA for my top 3 centres = OK with me, given that we're going to have Alfie, Michalek, Kovalev, Foligno, etc. on those wings.

I just don't believe that Mike Fisher can be a #1 centre long-term, nor do I think Regin is ready for that pressure, despite his strong play.

wprager wrote:
That game of dodgeball marks the turnaround. That much should not be disputed. What I don't remember is when Alfie joined the team on the road. I believe it may have been in New York. Then, when their two goalies went down and Brodeur had to be recalled at almost the last second, the team really had nothing to look forward to. On the other hand, there was also absolutely no pressure of any expectation of a win.

Yeah, the Central Park dodgeball game was the turning point of the season and as far as I remember, Alfie joined them after the Rangers win.

asq2 wrote:
I just don't believe that Mike Fisher can be a #1 centre long-term, nor do I think Regin is ready for that pressure, despite his strong play.

Agreed. Mike Fisher can't be the number one at all based on how he slumped when Alfie and Spezza were down. This is precisely why I've never argued against trading Spezza, just that if it were to happen, I have specific players I would want back.

asq2 wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

SpezDispenser wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:
Spezza isn't a negative, I'd say. But at $7 mil / 7 years, he's got to be more than than. He's got to be a positive. The fact that we do just fine without him on a consistent basis speaks volumes.

I don't know how you can get any comfort from sentences like "the team doesn't hinge on Spezza" and "he may well be the most expensive complimentary player in the NHL." That's called "damning with faint praise," my friend. Your own defences of Spezza are making the argument to consider moving Spezza all the stronger.

I never said I wasn't open to trading him, just that we could run into problems if we do depending on who we get back.

Present me a list of names that could be acquired for him and then we'll have a better idea of if he can go or not.

I don't have the time at the moment to go through an exhaustive list, but I think you probably trade Spezza for youth (you're not going to get a #1 centre in return -- that's why any team that is interested in Spezza, is interested in Spezza), and then look to the FA market to help fill the void for 2/3 years. Teams like EDM (Gagner+?), ATL if they lose Kovalchuk (Little++?), STL (probably not Macdonald, but Berglund+?), etc., might have interest.

I'm really not all that panicked at the thought of replacing Spezza with a Mike Ribiero-esque player. That's basically what we have at the moment, for all intents and purposes, but for twice the price and twice the term. I don't buy the concern about the "who's our #1 centre, then?" thing, either. This team has 3 lines that play and score on any given night, plus a mean-Donkey 4th that can also score. That's what you want -- not one big line anchored by one big centre. Fisher + Regin + mystery FA for my top 3 centres = OK with me, given that we're going to have Alfie, Michalek, Kovalev, Foligno, etc. on those wings.

I just don't believe that Mike Fisher can be a #1 centre long-term, nor do I think Regin is ready for that pressure, despite his strong play.

Again, this is my point. What I'm saying is that this concern about "who's our #1 centre" is entirely misguided.

Do a tour around the league. Many teams don't have a clear-cut or elite #1 centre, and less than half the league have a clear-cut 1/2 Centre combo, with teams like PIT and DET sticking out. Of those that do, their wing depth is often brutal. Crosby and Malkin play with a bunch of leftovers and kids. After Franzen, so do Datsyuk and Zetterberg. The only team that has quality down the middle and on the wings that I can think of is PHI -- and they get that at the cost of cheap goaltending.

You counter 'but PIT and DET won cups!' Yes. But they did so while paying those bigtime centres far, far less than we now pay Spezza. Zetterberg's (2009) and Malkin's (signed in 2008, but didn't kick in until this year, 2009-10) new deals both kicked in *after* their teams won the cup. Those teams were deep at centre and on the wings as a result.

What this year should be teaching us more than anything is that overall team depth & system & a lunch-pail-and-hard-hat attitude, rather than an explosive #1 line, is what will win you games. That it doesn't matter who your #1 centre is, or even your #1 line, when you have 3 lines that can score.

Trade Spezza for youth, depth, and/or D help, not because he's a bad player or because he doesn't contribute or he isn't a #1 centre, but because we can get another guy to do pretty much everything he does for half the price, because $7 mil is too much to pay a guy who doesn't do a bit of everything for your team ala Crosby, Malkin, Datsyuk, and Zetterberg. Get younger and deeper and more balanced. If you're worried about a void at centre, take some of the money you save on Spezza (say, $4 mil) and get a guy in the Mike Ribiero or Tomas Plekanec mold -- not because they are awesome players, but because they can largely do the offensive thing that Spezza does and, like Spezza, largely not contribute in all other areas.

Trading Spezza isn't about hating him or denying his skill. It's about an ineffective use of cap space. It's about a mentality -- "we need a bigtime centre!" -- that's wrongheaded. It's about the fact that teams can't build a strong enough team overall when they spend that kind of money on so few players up front. When PIT fails to win the cup this year, which they will, it will be because they just couldn't surround Crosby and Malkin with enough talent -- not because no one wants to play for them (who wouldn't want to play with those two?), but because the team didn't have the cap space to make it happen.

Spezza is wrong for this team because we can get by without him, and because we can replace most of what he brings to the table for about half the price. And that is the biggest insult I can think of saying about any guy who is your highest paid player and "#1" centre.

That's pretty much irrelevant, IMO, because nobody will take Spezza without giving the same amount of salary back.
Let's say we get 2 players at 3.5 million each.
Two choices:
1/ They are good players, which make them pretty sexy at that price tag, so their teams won't trade them for Spezza
2/ THey are overpaid and pretty much garbage or UFA, so that should not enocourage us to trade Spezza. Might get a pick along with it, but 1st rounders are becoming more and more valuable, if we get one it would be in the 25-30th range, which does not interest me either.

So, I'm all for trading Spezza for a nice young player and a pick, but there are probably 2 teams max in the league that can take that salary cap, with no financial problems.

EDM, ATL (especially if they lose Kovalchuk), and STL all strike me as teams who would be potentially interested. CLB, NSH, MIN, TOR, and FLA are other possibilities. Ditto for CGY if they let Jokinen go.

When I say "trade Spezza," btw, I mean, of course, trade Spezza in June, at the draft, before July 1. The whole concern about dollars for dollars trades is far less pressing during the off-season, when you have time and opportunity to both go over the cap and to make adjustments as needed.

Ok fair enough.
But like it's been said earlier, if Spezza goes on a tear, I have a hard time believing Murray will trade him.
If he struggles, his value will be so low it might be way worse than the HEatley deal, and we end up with 2 Chechoos for the price of 1 Spezza...

I predict he will neither tear it up nor struggle immensely. He'll probably end up performing somewhere in between those extremes which would make him tradable. I agree that the trade return part isn't very simple, it is contingent on so many variables. But, to this Senators team in particular, he is not worth the coin he is paid at the moment, that much is clear.

Seriously, the way Karlsson is playing and Cowen hopefully coming in the next 2 years, and why not Wiercioch, we might get those defensemen for the next 5 years at 5 MIllion combined...

I'd say Spezza's cap, if that happens, would not be a major problem, even if he's overpaid.

You could tell Montreal's intention in that first was to be all over Kovalev. Good for him! Great pass by Kuba!
Michalek for roughing gave me a chuckle.

If Campoli continues with those turnovers, he's gonna give his spot to Picard.

Cmon, a goal on this PP would seal this game IMO.

Why are people in this thread?

marakh wrote:Cmon, a goal on this PP would seal this game IMO.

There you go

I didn't know we were playing Pittsburgh