Murray puts "CAP MANAGERS" worries at bay...

hemlock wrote:

I think having Heatley and Spezza on those deals looks much worse because of the contracts of guys like Fisher.

Yeah, that's true -- as I think just about everyone who's been paying attention recognizes, the larger problem has been that our cap money allocation is very top heavy, and centred around too few people. $23+ mil on 4 forwards is a lot. Most teams fill out their top 6 with that kind of money, sometimes with change to spare. By contrast, we get one line, plus a 2nd line centre who might not be a true 2nd line centre.

rooneypoo wrote:

hemlock wrote:

I think having Heatley and Spezza on those deals looks much worse because of the contracts of guys like Fisher.

Yeah, that's true -- as I think just about everyone who's been paying attention recognizes, the larger problem has been that our cap money allocation is very top heavy, and centred around too few people. $23+ mil on 4 forwards is a lot. Most teams fill out their top 6 with that kind of money, sometimes with change to spare. By contrast, we get one line, plus a 2nd line centre who might not be a true 2nd line centre.

Yeah, spreading it around is ideal. Calgary seems like the anti-us now though. I think their blueline costs $45 million doesn't it? :^^^^:

rooneypoo wrote:

hemlock wrote:

I think having Heatley and Spezza on those deals looks much worse because of the contracts of guys like Fisher.

Yeah, that's true -- as I think just about everyone who's been paying attention recognizes, the larger problem has been that our cap money allocation is very top heavy, and centred around too few people. $23+ mil on 4 forwards is a lot. Most teams fill out their top 6 with that kind of money, sometimes with change to spare. By contrast, we get one line, plus a 2nd line centre who might not be a true 2nd line centre.

I agree completely that it's a lot, but I think that when you have 3 legitimate elite forwards, it's to be expected that the forward core is expensive. There's no question in my mind that the Pizza line (HATE that name) could easily be an all-star line. You pay for that kind of talent.

I hope, as many others have stated, that this situation allows us to retain some of the talent level while spreading out the money a little bit more. Two good, 45+ point producers at what we pay for Heatley would be great.

Moreover, I think that stocking the forward cupboard in Bingo is a reasonable and legitimate return provided we get at least one top-six forward in the deal. I wouldn't be terribly disappointed with Setoguchi, 1st, Couture and McGinn for Heater. We get some cap space, potential with another first, and the potential of a couple good prospects. That scenario, coupled with the point production we'll get from Setoguchi and Kovalev and I think we're in good shape. I'm sure many will disagree though.

spader wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

hemlock wrote:

I think having Heatley and Spezza on those deals looks much worse because of the contracts of guys like Fisher.

Yeah, that's true -- as I think just about everyone who's been paying attention recognizes, the larger problem has been that our cap money allocation is very top heavy, and centred around too few people. $23+ mil on 4 forwards is a lot. Most teams fill out their top 6 with that kind of money, sometimes with change to spare. By contrast, we get one line, plus a 2nd line centre who might not be a true 2nd line centre.

I agree completely that it's a lot, but I think that when you have 3 legitimate elite forwards, it's to be expected that the forward core is expensive. There's no question in my mind that the Pizza line (HATE that name) could easily be an all-star line. You pay for that kind of talent.

I hope, as many others have stated, that this situation allows us to retain some of the talent level while spreading out the money a little bit more. Two good, 45+ point producers at what we pay for Heatley would be great.

Moreover, I think that stocking the forward cupboard in Bingo is a reasonable and legitimate return provided we get at least one top-six forward in the deal. I wouldn't be terribly disappointed with Setoguchi, 1st, Couture and McGinn for Heater. We get some cap space, potential with another first, and the potential of a couple good prospects. That scenario, coupled with the point production we'll get from Setoguchi and Kovalev and I think we're in good shape. I'm sure many will disagree though.

Dude, if that's your idea of lowered expectations, you need to think again!

We're not getting a deal that looks anything near that: that's basically the best of SJ's farm, and the best of their young, cheap players. That deal puts SJ over the cap by about $7 mil, too.

rooneypoo wrote:

spader wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

hemlock wrote:

I think having Heatley and Spezza on those deals looks much worse because of the contracts of guys like Fisher.

Yeah, that's true -- as I think just about everyone who's been paying attention recognizes, the larger problem has been that our cap money allocation is very top heavy, and centred around too few people. $23+ mil on 4 forwards is a lot. Most teams fill out their top 6 with that kind of money, sometimes with change to spare. By contrast, we get one line, plus a 2nd line centre who might not be a true 2nd line centre.

I agree completely that it's a lot, but I think that when you have 3 legitimate elite forwards, it's to be expected that the forward core is expensive. There's no question in my mind that the Pizza line (HATE that name) could easily be an all-star line. You pay for that kind of talent.

I hope, as many others have stated, that this situation allows us to retain some of the talent level while spreading out the money a little bit more. Two good, 45+ point producers at what we pay for Heatley would be great.

Moreover, I think that stocking the forward cupboard in Bingo is a reasonable and legitimate return provided we get at least one top-six forward in the deal. I wouldn't be terribly disappointed with Setoguchi, 1st, Couture and McGinn for Heater. We get some cap space, potential with another first, and the potential of a couple good prospects. That scenario, coupled with the point production we'll get from Setoguchi and Kovalev and I think we're in good shape. I'm sure many will disagree though.

Dude, if that's your idea of lowered expectations, you need to think again!

We're not getting a deal that looks anything near that: that's basically the best of SJ's farm, and the best of their young, cheap players. That deal puts SJ over the cap by about $7 mil, too.

refer them to capgeek dr poo, you know you want to :^^^^: seriously, and it has been said before, either Cheechoo or another large contract must come back in return from SJ (Marleau perhaps, but he won't waive for anybody I am hearing), or SJ would have to dump Cheechoo or Marleau first to another team, take no salary back in return, then you can attempt a prospect/picks deal for Heatley at that point. At this point in the off season, I would say not likely at all, Murray has already turned focus I am sure to getting himself back comfortably under the cap, even that is just by putting Smith on LTIR (am thinking more would have to be done than that however). He has to do some forward thinking because we have some pretty important FA's coming up next year (A-Train and Foligno are two I can think of right now)

rooneypoo wrote:

spader wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

hemlock wrote:

I think having Heatley and Spezza on those deals looks much worse because of the contracts of guys like Fisher.

Yeah, that's true -- as I think just about everyone who's been paying attention recognizes, the larger problem has been that our cap money allocation is very top heavy, and centred around too few people. $23+ mil on 4 forwards is a lot. Most teams fill out their top 6 with that kind of money, sometimes with change to spare. By contrast, we get one line, plus a 2nd line centre who might not be a true 2nd line centre.

I agree completely that it's a lot, but I think that when you have 3 legitimate elite forwards, it's to be expected that the forward core is expensive. There's no question in my mind that the Pizza line (HATE that name) could easily be an all-star line. You pay for that kind of talent.

I hope, as many others have stated, that this situation allows us to retain some of the talent level while spreading out the money a little bit more. Two good, 45+ point producers at what we pay for Heatley would be great.

Moreover, I think that stocking the forward cupboard in Bingo is a reasonable and legitimate return provided we get at least one top-six forward in the deal. I wouldn't be terribly disappointed with Setoguchi, 1st, Couture and McGinn for Heater. We get some cap space, potential with another first, and the potential of a couple good prospects. That scenario, coupled with the point production we'll get from Setoguchi and Kovalev and I think we're in good shape. I'm sure many will disagree though.

Dude, if that's your idea of lowered expectations, you need to think again!

We're not getting a deal that looks anything near that: that's basically the best of SJ's farm, and the best of their young, cheap players. That deal puts SJ over the cap by about $7 mil, too.

Two things...one, I meant to say Couture OR McGinn. Second, how does giving them 7.5 million and taking on (I'm guessing) 2 or 2.5 mil for Setoguchi put them over by 7 mil?
Sure, they'd still be over by a chunk, but all I meant was that Setoguchi, with a prospect and a pick would make me happy.

Setoguchi is 1.246, Heatley is 7.5, SJ are at the moment 0.6 over the cap, so that deal puts SJ at:

0.6+7.5-1.246 = 6.854 = 7 approx.

Setoguchi is a non starter I believe. SJ is a top team so their pick, even a 1st, isn't a good as others would be. They do have 3 prospects I'd like, but at this point any deal made with SJ involves Jonathan Cheechoo coming back. Wilson has stuck to his guns long enough, and now that Heatley has managed to actually lessen his own value, there's no chance Wilson will budge from that stance imo.

spader wrote:

Two things...one, I meant to say Couture OR McGinn. Second, how does giving them 7.5 million and taking on (I'm guessing) 2 or 2.5 mil for Setoguchi put them over by 7 mil?
Sure, they'd still be over by a chunk, but all I meant was that Setoguchi, with a prospect and a pick would make me happy.

In reply to those "two things":

1) That deal is still waaaay too sweet for OTT. There's no way, no chance we make a deal for Heatley with any team in the league without having to take back comparable salary.

2) They take on $7.5 mil, and send away $2-2.5 mil. However, they've just subtracted yet another forward (Setoguchi + McGinn or Couture). Add in Heatley and take away McGinn and Setoguchi from the SJ roster, and their are $6.3 mil over the cap (according to CapGeek). In turn, they still have to add three more forwards -- at bare minimum, an expense of $1.5 mil. The figure I cited previously ($7+ million over the cap) was taking this for granted, as SJ is already effectively over the cap right now.

I get what you're saying -- you'd settle for a return that doesn't have a big-name superstar -- but this is precisely the kind of return we ought NOT to expect, regardless of how much we'd like to see it happen, because it's not going to look like this at all. There will be salary coming OTT's way, guaranteed.