Bryan Murray Vs Dany Heatley: Who Blinks First?

In fairness, Boo Boo doesn't know how the cap works, but DennyCrane does. I think he just slipped up there.

SpezDispenser wrote:In fairness, Boo Boo doesn't know how the cap works, but DennyCrane does. I think he just slipped up there.

He does it a lot though and just because it is in print it shapes the opinions of the sheep....

Mojo wrote:Dave, while I am no legal expert, I really think you are making something out of nothing. Have you heard any hint from the Sens' organization that suggests they are even considering taking legal action? Is there any precedent in all of professional sports that suggests the Sens would have a legal leg to stand on if they desired this route? My guess is that the answer is no to both questions. I certainly haven't heard anything along these lines.

I get that you are trying to incite discussion, that's a good thing, but this topic feels really strained. Heatley will get traded and things in the NHL will run as usual. This will not change anything except for the Sens and the other team involved.

Just asking the questions more than a few of us are asking...

When the highest paid player in the NHL last year demands a trade and it is played out in such a public and contentious fashion, it's not 'something out of nothing'.

It's a major event.

If you know anything about the conflicts--and nasty doesn't even begin to describe some of them--that have marred the history of labour relations in the NHL, you understand this.

"Net Worth" by David Cruise and Alison Griffiths is recommended reading for anyone who wants to know just how nasty it has been. Even given the fact this book was written in 1991, it remains the point of reference for hockey journalists who examine the business side of the NHL.

If the current situation escalates--and no one knows yet if it will--the ability of teams to secure their talent is, in principle, thrown completely into question.

It will also be interesting to see, should the situation arrive at an impasse, whether the NHLPA would intervene.

Could Heatley decide to 'sit out' the 2009-10 season? Return to Russia and the KHL where he played for Ak-Bars Kazan during the lockout? The Swiss League? All are possibilities.

Many questions...

MurderOnIce wrote:

SpezDispenser wrote:In fairness, Boo Boo doesn't know how the cap works, but DennyCrane does. I think he just slipped up there.

He does it a lot though and just because it is in print it shapes the opinions of the sheep....

Oh, yeah, I agree, I'm not defending Boo. His article are delicious pieces of pulp fiction - good for crapping in the...crapper.

davetherave wrote:
Just asking the questions more than a few of us are asking...

When the highest paid player in the NHL last year demands a trade and it is played out in such a public and contentious fashion, it's not 'something out of nothing'.

It's a major event.

If you know anything about the conflicts--and nasty doesn't even begin to describe some of them--that have marred the history of labour relations in the NHL, you understand this.

"Net Worth" by David Cruise and Alison Griffiths is recommended reading for anyone who wants to know just how nasty it has been. Even given the fact this book was written in 1991, it remains the point of reference for hockey journalists who examine the business side of the NHL.

If the current situation escalates--and no one knows yet if it will--the ability of teams to secure their talent is, in principle, thrown completely into question.

It will also be interesting to see, should the situation arrive at an impasse, whether the NHLPA would intervene.

Could Heatley decide to 'sit out' the 2009-10 season? Return to Russia and the KHL where he played for Ak-Bars Kazan during the lockout? The Swiss League? All are possibilities.

Many questions...

It's true. While most people think that this will get resolved, I've heard more than a couple think that this could potentially get really ugly.

Also, with July 1st right around the corner, I can guarantee that agents are not pleased with this coming out right now. Not only does it take away from their clients (Hossa, Havlat, even Bouwmeester), it also makes GMs really, really nervous about giving out NMC or NTC. Screw that! If you want a NMC, I can no longer afford you.

I don't think that the NMC/NTC is going to be the big issue here; I doubt that there is any team out there that would've made a strong effort to bring in Heatley but will refrain from doing so because of his NM/NTC. The sens will, in the end, get the right deal for Mr. Heatley (it might take longer that we wish).

I can't help but wonder what things would be like if our GM was Brian Burke instead of Brian Murray tho ...

To come back to the NM/NTC clauses, they're much more scary when you get a player like Redden (a slacker) because then there's no way to get rid of him; well unless Milbury comes back to run a team (into the ground).

SpezDispenser wrote:In fairness, Boo Boo doesn't know how the cap works, but DennyCrane does. I think he just slipped up there.

Booboo just has to put a negative, Chicken Little spin on things to create drama.

Here's some real food for though. I bet you a team pays a premium to get Heatley for 4 million next season. And I bet you the Senators don't mind essentially paying cash for an extra player and/or extra pick.

Instead of being a burden this "bonus" can be an actual bonus... for Bryan Murray.

davetherave wrote:

Mojo wrote:Dave, while I am no legal expert, I really think you are making something out of nothing. Have you heard any hint from the Sens' organization that suggests they are even considering taking legal action? Is there any precedent in all of professional sports that suggests the Sens would have a legal leg to stand on if they desired this route? My guess is that the answer is no to both questions. I certainly haven't heard anything along these lines.

I get that you are trying to incite discussion, that's a good thing, but this topic feels really strained. Heatley will get traded and things in the NHL will run as usual. This will not change anything except for the Sens and the other team involved.

Just asking the questions more than a few of us are asking...

When the highest paid player in the NHL last year demands a trade and it is played out in such a public and contentious fashion, it's not 'something out of nothing'.

It's a major event.

If you know anything about the conflicts--and nasty doesn't even begin to describe some of them--that have marred the history of labour relations in the NHL, you understand this.

"Net Worth" by David Cruise and Alison Griffiths is recommended reading for anyone who wants to know just how nasty it has been. Even given the fact this book was written in 1991, it remains the point of reference for hockey journalists who examine the business side of the NHL.

If the current situation escalates--and no one knows yet if it will--the ability of teams to secure their talent is, in principle, thrown completely into question.

It will also be interesting to see, should the situation arrive at an impasse, whether the NHLPA would intervene.

Could Heatley decide to 'sit out' the 2009-10 season? Return to Russia and the KHL where he played for Ak-Bars Kazan during the lockout? The Swiss League? All are possibilities.

Many questions...

I think the only place Heatley can play is in the KHL because there is no IIHF agreement for the transfer of signed contracts. Isbister had to ask for permission to play overseas. I doubt Murray would let Heatley play as I dont think he would risk injury to Heatley.

davetherave wrote:

Mojo wrote:Dave, while I am no legal expert, I really think you are making something out of nothing. Have you heard any hint from the Sens' organization that suggests they are even considering taking legal action? Is there any precedent in all of professional sports that suggests the Sens would have a legal leg to stand on if they desired this route? My guess is that the answer is no to both questions. I certainly haven't heard anything along these lines.

I get that you are trying to incite discussion, that's a good thing, but this topic feels really strained. Heatley will get traded and things in the NHL will run as usual. This will not change anything except for the Sens and the other team involved.

Just asking the questions more than a few of us are asking...

When the highest paid player in the NHL last year demands a trade and it is played out in such a public and contentious fashion, it's not 'something out of nothing'.

It's a major event.

If you know anything about the conflicts--and nasty doesn't even begin to describe some of them--that have marred the history of labour relations in the NHL, you understand this.

"Net Worth" by David Cruise and Alison Griffiths is recommended reading for anyone who wants to know just how nasty it has been. Even given the fact this book was written in 1991, it remains the point of reference for hockey journalists who examine the business side of the NHL.

If the current situation escalates--and no one knows yet if it will--the ability of teams to secure their talent is, in principle, thrown completely into question.

It will also be interesting to see, should the situation arrive at an impasse, whether the NHLPA would intervene.

Could Heatley decide to 'sit out' the 2009-10 season? Return to Russia and the KHL where he played for Ak-Bars Kazan during the lockout? The Swiss League? All are possibilities.

Many questions...

I see you managed to detract from my questions and instead talk about something else. Are you sure you're not a politician?

I'll repeat myself: Have you heard any hint from the Sens' organization that suggests they are even considering taking legal action? Is there any precedent in all of professional sports that suggests the Sens would have a legal leg to stand on if they desired this route?

If your answer is no to either of these questions, then yes, you are making something out of nothing.

Avatar> Interesting that you should bring up Brian Burke.

Some people may know Burke is a lawyer, but many may not know that Burke was Vice President of the NHL in 1994 when the players and owners had their labour dispute that led to the strike shortened 1994-95 season.

Burke has expressed his disdain for No Trade Clauses and has been very public during his present role as Maple Leafs GM that he will not be intimidated or obstructed by NTCs and NMCs.

As for your reference to Mike Milbury, you may be surprised to know that Milbury was an extremely active advocate for players' rights as NHLPA representative in the 1990's, taking on the then all-powerful (and since convicted felon) NHLPA head Alan Eagleson.

When fans look at the goings-on in today's NHL, they are sometimes unaware that the figures they laud or villify have a historical relationship with the game and the business that might alter their view.

Along with the aforementioned "Net Worth", "Cracked Ice: An Insider's Look at the NHL in Turmoil" by Stan Fischler can be a shocking experience.

If one takes the time to digest the stories so vividly described by the investigation of these diligent journalists, the picture emerges of an NHL in serious financial trouble since the 1967 expansion and the challenges of the World Hockey Association and the International Hockey League.

Flyers GM Bobby Clarke, back in the 90s, pointed the finger unequivocally at the players saying their salary demands were bankrupting the sport. Whether one agrees or disagrees, such a strong statement destroys the illusion that labour and management have anything but a convenient and temporary truce.

Whereas 'The Original Six' was a closed club of extraordinarily wealthy enterprises run by iron-fisted plutocrats, the current NHL is leveraged beyond comprehension.

The escalating salaries have help create this 'house of cards'. Could The Heatley Affair become a force that brings it down again?

While one might think there are many hoping this will all blow over, that expression might take on a very different meaning.

SpezDispenser wrote:

dennycrane wrote:Murray won't blink. Fans will support the team if Murray holds a hard line with Heatley. The 4 million against the cap is concerning, but I think Murray makes a deal before the draft is done. The rumours will be out of control by this time next week.

4 million against the cap? I thought it was a 4 million bonus that is structured into his overall actual money owed for next year, his cap hit will forever remain 7.5 million for the duration.

I think this is out of Melnyk's pocket, not off the cap.

I have read a couple of articles stating that this does count against the cap. I don't know for sure. My assumption was always that it would not count, but I guess I took what I read as gospel.

I remember when McCabe was traded, the trade wasn't consumated until a roster bonus was paid by the Leafs. Still, I think Heatley goes before the draft. I think Melnyk would sooner have the 4 million than whatever a team takes away.

Mojo wrote:

davetherave wrote: Just asking the questions more than a few of us are asking...

When the highest paid player in the NHL last year demands a trade and it is played out in such a public and contentious fashion, it's not 'something out of nothing'.

It's a major event.

If you know anything about the conflicts--and nasty doesn't even begin to describe some of them--that have marred the history of labour relations in the NHL, you understand this.

"Net Worth" by David Cruise and Alison Griffiths is recommended reading for anyone who wants to know just how nasty it has been. Even given the fact this book was written in 1991, it remains the point of reference for hockey journalists who examine the business side of the NHL.

If the current situation escalates--and no one knows yet if it will--the ability of teams to secure their talent is, in principle, thrown completely into question.

It will also be interesting to see, should the situation arrive at an impasse, whether the NHLPA would intervene.

Could Heatley decide to 'sit out' the 2009-10 season? Return to Russia and the KHL where he played for Ak-Bars Kazan during the lockout? The Swiss League? All are possibilities.

Many questions...

I see you managed to detract from my questions and instead talk about something else. Are you sure you're not a politician?

I'll repeat myself: Have you heard any hint from the Sens' organization that suggests they are even considering taking legal action? Is there any precedent in all of professional sports that suggests the Sens would have a legal leg to stand on if they desired this route?

If your answer is no to either of these questions, then yes, you are making something out of nothing.

Mojo, many people are asking a lot of questions, including the ones you raised, which can only be answered by those in a position to do so.

If you prefer to believe this is 'something out of nothing', then you are entitled to your opinion.

Others are entitled to their opinions, and we are all entitled--whether that pleases you or not--to ask the questions.

Given the intense interest in this topic not only in this forum, but from what we hear and read in this city, among a large proportion of the hockey fan base, those asking questions far outnumber you.

And the questions will continue until the situation is resolved, for all the reasons cited.

A hockey player pockets $10 million dollars from a team with an additional $4 million payment pending, while he demands his ticket out of the town to the destination of his choice. That kind of situation raises a lot of questions.

Doesn't it?

SeawaySensFan wrote:

SpezDispenser wrote:In fairness, Boo Boo doesn't know how the cap works, but DennyCrane does. I think he just slipped up there.

Booboo just has to put a negative, Chicken Little spin on things to create drama.

Here's some real food for though. I bet you a team pays a premium to get Heatley for 4 million next season. And I bet you the Senators don't mind essentially paying cash for an extra player and/or extra pick.

Instead of being a burden this "bonus" can be an actual bonus... for Bryan Murray.

Totally, I've thought that all along.

dennycrane wrote:

I have read a couple of articles stating that this does count against the cap. I don't know for sure. My assumption was always that it would not count, but I guess I took what I read as gospel.

I remember when McCabe was traded, the trade wasn't consumated until a roster bonus was paid by the Leafs. Still, I think Heatley goes before the draft. I think Melnyk would sooner have the 4 million than whatever a team takes away.

It definitely isn't off the cap. I wish it was actually, we could get another big time prospect or player for sheltering the other team.

SpezDispenser wrote:

dennycrane wrote:

I have read a couple of articles stating that this does count against the cap. I don't know for sure. My assumption was always that it would not count, but I guess I took what I read as gospel.

I remember when McCabe was traded, the trade wasn't consumated until a roster bonus was paid by the Leafs. Still, I think Heatley goes before the draft. I think Melnyk would sooner have the 4 million than whatever a team takes away.

It definitely isn't off the cap. I wish it was actually, we could get another big time prospect or player for sheltering the other team.

For a goal-scorer like Heatley, 7.5 on the cap isn't that bad. Frankly, in real dollars, he could be a bargain for a potential suitor as well.

SeawaySensFan wrote:
For a goal-scorer like Heatley, 7.5 on the cap isn't that bad. Frankly, in real dollars, he could be a bargain for a potential suitor as well.

To me, he is a bargain. You know what you're getting, you know what he can do, he brings in marquee value, he's going to the Olympics, probably the All-Star game.

To me, this is the guy for a team who wants marquee value/player - like Edmonton.

Heatley really put the sens in jam ... trading a player under these conditions will only result in Ottawa getting the shorter end of the stick.

Tx Dany.

SpezDispenser wrote:

SeawaySensFan wrote:
For a goal-scorer like Heatley, 7.5 on the cap isn't that bad. Frankly, in real dollars, he could be a bargain for a potential suitor as well.

To me, he is a bargain. You know what you're getting, you know what he can do, he brings in marquee value, he's going to the Olympics, probably the All-Star game.

To me, this is the guy for a team who wants marquee value/player - like Edmonton.

I don't think he'll be at the Olympics if it gets to the point he sits out for an extended period of time.