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Bryan Murray's capabilities as a GM

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jamvan
SensGirl11
Acrobat
LeCaptain
strachattack
PKC
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top shelf15
PTFlea
davetherave
The Silfer Server
Cap'n Clutch
Hockeyhero22000
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1Bryan Murray's capabilities as a GM Empty Bryan Murray's capabilities as a GM Mon Apr 27, 2009 1:10 pm

Hockeyhero22000

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I've noticed in the cap'ns thread if the sens do nothing that it got off topic but there came a lot of debate whether or not Bryan Murray is a good enough GM to get things rolling in Ottawa so i though i would open one up so we would have a good place to discuss whether or not he has the ability.

I think he has been proven in the draft but his trades are usually a little suspect but i also believe it is hard to make a lot of trades when you don't want to give up a lot of picks because Murray has been so good in drafts he wont relinquish a lot of picks and making the big spectacular blockbuster trades arent always as easy as everyone thinks player cant be traded as easy as their hockey cards.....

looking forward to seeing some good posts

2Bryan Murray's capabilities as a GM Empty Re: Bryan Murray's capabilities as a GM Mon Apr 27, 2009 1:20 pm

Cap'n Clutch

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Like I said in the previous thread I think it's too early to make a fair assesment of Murray as GM and I'm willing to give him another couple years before we scrap him and start all over with new GM, new Scouting staff, new Assistant GM, New coaching and training staff and on and on.


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3Bryan Murray's capabilities as a GM Empty Re: Bryan Murray's capabilities as a GM Mon Apr 27, 2009 1:24 pm

Hockeyhero22000

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i agree cap i just saw this arguement heating up in the other thread so i thought i would make this to try and let the other go back to the sens and not all about murray

4Bryan Murray's capabilities as a GM Empty Re: Bryan Murray's capabilities as a GM Mon Apr 27, 2009 1:26 pm

Cap'n Clutch

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Hockeyhero22000 wrote:i agree cap i just saw this arguement heating up in the other thread so i thought i would make this to try and let the other go back to the sens and not all about murray

Good call. Hopefully the other can get back on topic now Smile


_________________
"A child with Autism is not ignoring you, they are waiting for you to enter their world."

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5Bryan Murray's capabilities as a GM Empty Re: Bryan Murray's capabilities as a GM Mon Apr 27, 2009 1:44 pm

The Silfer Server

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My bad guys, i just wrote a nearly 1000 word rebuttal to Dave on the other post referring to Bryan Murray's work as GM... I'll copy paste it here, but i'm not sure how I would go about deleting it from there.

6Bryan Murray's capabilities as a GM Empty Re: Bryan Murray's capabilities as a GM Mon Apr 27, 2009 1:45 pm

The Silfer Server

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Dave, I am a big fan of your posts, they are insightful, objective, and well written. That being said, I don't always agree with everything you say, as would be expected. I am going to attempt to respond to a couple of the points you have made in your last few posts in a manner that I hope will also be insightful, objective, and well written.

In regards to the point you made to RobbyJ about Muckler consulting Murray about choosing Chara over Redden, you mentioned that this is a decision that is not taken likely, and that Muckler consults with all faculties of the organization in order to be 'choose' between players. I agree with this assesment, however, I don't believe the decision rested as much with Murray as you may think. As you say, an NHL franchise is a quarter billion dollar industry, thus making money is a crucial aspect to being successful, and winning can be considered secondary. I believe
the decision to retain Redden's services as opposed to Chara's were based on Redden being the more marketable player in the Ottawa community. He had been here since he was drafted (drafted by the isles, traded the next year to us) and has since been an invaluable part of the community. When the decision was made, he had not yet regressed to his current atrocious style of play. Both players were considered good enough to be a number 1 on any team, thus skill wise was not a leading factor in the decision. Ottawa was a young franchise, and Redden had
been a part of it for nearly a decade. We had a young fanbase, loyal, and Redden not only as a staple of the community, an Assistant Captain on the team, had his own fanbase. I do believe there would have been public outcry had they chosen to keep Chara instead. But for the record, I had wanted them to keep Chara.

In another post, Dave you mention that Bryan Murray does not have the 'agility' to be a GM in the new NHL because he hasn't "adjusted and continued to adjust to
address the challenges and realities of the hockey business." Then you site GM's like Chiarelli, Shero, Tallon as GM's who do have this ability. Again, obviously, I would have to respectfully disagree with you. I agree about the point about the coaches, in that regard, he has not chosen wisely. However, looking at these other GMs, it is easy to say that they turned these teams around, as their teams became
competitive shortly after the GMs arrivals. But I do not believe that is the case. Shero was hired in 2006, in time to draft the 2nd overall player in Jordan Staal. Prior to that year, his team had drafted the phenom Sidney Crosby 1st overall. The year before that, his team drafted arguably the best Russian in hockey, 2nd overall in Evgeni Malkin. The year before that, the Penguins had yet another first
overall pick, and drafted their franchise goalie Marc Andre Fleury. In four years, they had two 1st overall picks and two 2nd overall picks... Picks that have ended up being these generational players. It seems to me as though Shero inherited this incredible team. THe moves he made, such as the Hossa deal, you can argue were solid, but they didn't lead to winning the stanley cup, but had managed to trade away many of their young prospects.

Dale Tallon is a different situation, however, as he was involved in the drafting of all their young stars. But to say he is agile, or moves quickly, is simply untrue. He has been GM since the first year after the lockout, and has only made the
post-season for the first time this year. He signed Khabibulin, which for the greater part of the contract, proved to be a horrendous mistake. To say it was a good signing is extremely difficult thing to do, has he has only proven to be successful this year, the final in his contract, another injury plagued season. This is another team that is where they are today because of the palyers they have drafted, Patrick
Kane, Toews, Barker, Seabrook, Keith, Byfuglien, and Bolland to name a few. He has made a couple of good acquisitions, most notably Patrick Sharp, however, that too took a couple years before paying off.

I'm not saying that they aren't good GM's, I'm trying to make the point that this idea of a quick turnaround due to the hiring of a GM is a myth. Bryan Murray is changing this team in order to make it his own. He is retooling the prospects and has made significant improvements. He re-signed two top forwards in this league. A two time 50 goal scorer, and a young dynamic playmaking centre. Both have had atrocious years, maybe even two atrocious years. But every player had struggled under the previous two coaches that were hired.

This is one aspect I agree with you (Dave) though, the Sens will need to make a couple more changes in order to be successful a Cup threat. But I am under the
impression that those changes could be filled through drafts, and will take time, through the maturing of prospects. To praise Tallon, Shero, Holmgren as superstar GMs and Murray as a goat is unfair. They all inherited different teams in different situations. But one thing the three of them had that Murray didn't, was a core of players made up of prospects: Shero with Fleury, Malkin, Crosby, Letang, and Staal; Tallon with Toews, Kane, Seabrook, Barker, and Keith; and to a lesser extent
Chiarelli with Lucic, Kessel, Krejci, and Bergeron.

Well my rant wasn't as concise, or well written/formulated as yours, but personally, I feel there are valid points in them . Look forward to hearing what you think.

7Bryan Murray's capabilities as a GM Empty Re: Bryan Murray's capabilities as a GM Mon Apr 27, 2009 1:48 pm

Cap'n Clutch

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Bass Destruction wrote:My bad guys, i just wrote a nearly 1000 word rebuttal to Dave on the other post referring to Bryan Murray's work as GM... I'll copy paste it here, but i'm not sure how I would go about deleting it from there.

In your post you should have an x beside Edit. Just click that and then confirm the deletion. I can do it for you this time if you like?


_________________
"A child with Autism is not ignoring you, they are waiting for you to enter their world."

- Unknown Author

8Bryan Murray's capabilities as a GM Empty Re: Bryan Murray's capabilities as a GM Mon Apr 27, 2009 2:07 pm

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I'd like to see him go. The Jason Smith signing didn't pan out (injury aside) I've questioned just about every trade he's made, save for Nycholat/Shannon deal (this was awesome), and his coaching choices, well...I don't need to remind anyone. Yes, he's a good drafter, but as I've pointed out, it's not like he's the only one. I'd like to see him finish the contract out and after next season when it's done, offer him a scouting role or perhaps the role of President, and hire David Poile, who's contract ends after next season.

9Bryan Murray's capabilities as a GM Empty Re: Bryan Murray's capabilities as a GM Mon Apr 27, 2009 2:10 pm

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Hemlock,

What specific trades are you unhappy about ?

What makes Poile's resume so great ?

10Bryan Murray's capabilities as a GM Empty Re: Bryan Murray's capabilities as a GM Mon Apr 27, 2009 2:22 pm

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RobbyJ wrote:Hemlock,

What specific trades are you unhappy about ?

What makes Poile's resume so great ?

The Mezsaros trade sucked. He should have forced Tampa to cough up their first either way. Either let them sign an offer sheet or force them to give us their pick along with Kuba. Picard I could have done without.

The Corvo/Eaves deal blew up in his face. The Lapointe deal did nothing for us, and there are a couple of other deals that the jury is still out on (Campoli for SJ's first) (Vermette for Leclaire).

David Poile has been a good GM for a long, long time. He was the GM in Washington for 15 years, at which time they were successful, making the playoffs in nearly all of those seasons. In Nashville, he's been able to build a competitive team (this year they were decimated by injuries, so I'll cut him some slack), on a fixed budget. He also manages to keep his system absolutely LOADED with talent. I'd trade our farm system with Nashville's in a heartbeat.

His experience is immense and can work within the restraints of practically any budget. He's the 7th longest tenured GM in league history. 26 years in that position with Washington and Nashville. And yet, he managed to evolve with the game. I don't think there are many better guys out there. Period.

11Bryan Murray's capabilities as a GM Empty Re: Bryan Murray's capabilities as a GM Mon Apr 27, 2009 2:27 pm

davetherave

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Cap'n Clutch wrote:
Hockeyhero22000 wrote:i agree cap i just saw this arguement heating up in the other thread so i thought i would make this to try and let the other go back to the sens and not all about murray

Good call. Hopefully the other can get back on topic now Smile

That's because we have so many passionate and intelligent members who love a good discussion...

:D:

12Bryan Murray's capabilities as a GM Empty Re: Bryan Murray's capabilities as a GM Mon Apr 27, 2009 2:29 pm

The Silfer Server

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Cap'n Clutch wrote:
Bass Destruction wrote:My bad guys, i just wrote a nearly 1000 word rebuttal to Dave on the other post referring to Bryan Murray's work as GM... I'll copy paste it here, but i'm not sure how I would go about deleting it from there.

In your post you should have an x beside Edit. Just click that and then confirm the deletion. I can do it for you this time if you like?

Next to Edit i just have the exclamation mark, in case i want to report my own post as being offensive and want to report it to you. Which is fair, I offend even myself at times. So if you could delete it this time, that would be great. Thanks Cap!

13Bryan Murray's capabilities as a GM Empty Re: Bryan Murray's capabilities as a GM Mon Apr 27, 2009 2:30 pm

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Bass Destruction wrote:
Cap'n Clutch wrote:
Bass Destruction wrote:My bad guys, i just wrote a nearly 1000 word rebuttal to Dave on the other post referring to Bryan Murray's work as GM... I'll copy paste it here, but i'm not sure how I would go about deleting it from there.

In your post you should have an x beside Edit. Just click that and then confirm the deletion. I can do it for you this time if you like?

Next to Edit i just have the exclamation mark, in case i want to report my own post as being offensive and want to report it to you. Which is fair, I offend even myself at times. So if you could delete it this time, that would be great. Thanks Cap!

LOL! Now that takes talent.

14Bryan Murray's capabilities as a GM Empty Re: Bryan Murray's capabilities as a GM Mon Apr 27, 2009 2:45 pm

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How was dealing Meszaros (who played like crap in Tampa and Ottawa the last 2 years before he was dealt) for Kuba, Picard, and SJ 1st a bad trade? Kuba for Meszaros straight up in a steal for Ottawa let alone grabbing Picard who is almost on the same level with Meszaros and a 1st that turned into Campoli who has such a large upside that could turn out to be a total steal as well. If anything that was Murray's best deal with the Shannon one.

Murray's only real poor decisions so far have been the coaches, but that seems to be worked out now as well.

Leclaire and a 2nd for Vermette could very well turn into a trade that we look back on as the one that changed the Sens organization around, let alone picking up a 2nd that could pan out in the future. Vermette and the Jackets won the same amount of playoff games as the Sens did, and if Anahiem wins thats also one more draft position that pick moves up.

The Carolina deal is bascially a none issue, you got rid of Corvo who didnt want to be here and was basically not wanted by Ottawa, losing Eaves is still kind of tough because he fit in well in Ottawa, but he couldnt stay healthy. The train was off the tracks in Ottawa before that deal was made and Murray tried to turn things around quick when it needed to be done, it didnt work. We lost basically nothing of any value in that trade for something that had the potential at the time to help the Sens.

Murray entire body of work in Ottawa has been solid, but he will be judged on what happens with Spezza and Heatley IMO. Reason being he has a chance to move Spezza and his salary before July 1, if he doesnt, and Spezza and/or Heatley stay in the tank and dont improve any signifigant amount, then that falls right on Murray. I'm not talking about moving for 70 points to 80 points, I'm talking about moving from 11th in the East 6th or higher in the East, because at the end of the day its a team game, and this "team" has all its eggs in one basket up front right now, if they cant get it done (not just 1 round and out either) then its Murray's a$$.

15Bryan Murray's capabilities as a GM Empty Re: Bryan Murray's capabilities as a GM Mon Apr 27, 2009 2:50 pm

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hemlock wrote:
RobbyJ wrote:Hemlock,

What specific trades are you unhappy about ?

What makes Poile's resume so great ?

The Mezsaros trade sucked. He should have forced Tampa to cough up their first either way. Either let them sign an offer sheet or force them to give us their pick along with Kuba. Picard I could have done without.

The Corvo/Eaves deal blew up in his face. The Lapointe deal did nothing for us, and there are a couple of other deals that the jury is still out on (Campoli for SJ's first) (Vermette for Leclaire).

David Poile has been a good GM for a long, long time. He was the GM in Washington for 15 years, at which time they were successful, making the playoffs in nearly all of those seasons. In Nashville, he's been able to build a competitive team (this year they were decimated by injuries, so I'll cut him some slack), on a fixed budget. He also manages to keep his system absolutely LOADED with talent. I'd trade our farm system with Nashville's in a heartbeat.

His experience is immense and can work within the restraints of practically any budget. He's the 7th longest tenured GM in league history. 26 years in that position with Washington and Nashville. And yet, he managed to evolve with the game. I don't think there are many better guys out there. Period.
Mezaros:

There is no guarantee that Tampa was going to put in an offer sheet. Even if they did we needed defensemen for this season. You say hold out for Kuba and their 1st. No way were they going to go with that, seeing as how deep this years draft is.

Lapointe:

It cost us a sixth round pick. Big deal. Nothing lost there.

Corvo/Eaves:

Were you one of the people screaming prior to the trade that Corvo needed to go and we needed some secondary scoring. I also remember many people screaming that Mike Commodore is exactly the type of player we needed. Corvo wanted out and Eaves is perpetually injured. Where would Eaves have played this year, in Shannon or Foligno's spots. Eaves was surplus and Murray took a shot to fix the team.

Campoli:

The jury is still out but we have been looking for puck moving defencemen, and he is cheap.

Leclaire:

Potentially the answer to our biggest problem since the franchise's inception, and we receive a 2nd round pick. Honestly, did you really miss Vermette down the stretch. I really liked Vermette and was hesitant to trade him, but seriously realized how little he brought once he was gone.

So, while I agree he hasn't really hit the ball out the park in the trade market, he hasn't done too badly.

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