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Sens this season's 'Biggest Disappointment'

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davetherave
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I would say the 2 most inconsistant players this year and last were def Heatley and Spezza. Honestly, how many nights or games this year can you say "Heatley or Spezza were this teams best player" I can think of maybe 5 combined, even then its a stretch.

Fisher has played hard every night, and his effort is 100% consistant which IMO is more important than constantly putting up the points, because at the end of the day if everyone is puttin in the effort consistantly then the production from everyone will come.

This team is a direct reflection of Heatley and Spezza. They get paid to get this team into the playoffs and make them a contender, thats why they both make 7 million a year. You can say they need help, sure, maybe they do, but those 2 should be good enough on their own to get the Sens into the playoffs in a weak Eastern Conferance.

It took a rookie goaltender and a rookie coach to make the Sens 2nd 1/2 of the season somewhat respectable. The addition of Shannon also made things a little easier on the team.

EDIT: You need a hard working team before you have a winning team, and right now, even with Clouston, its not there from everyone, every night. Spezza's been better but still totally inconsistant and Healtey is invisable most nights.



Last edited by Neely4Life on Thu Apr 02, 2009 12:12 am; edited 1 time in total

PTFlea


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Neely4Life wrote:I would say the 2 most inconsistant players this year and last were def Heatley and Spezza. Honestly, how many nights or games this year can you say "Heatley or Spezza were this teams best player" I can think of maybe 5 combined, even then its a stretch.

Fisher has played hard every night, and his effort is 100% consistant which IMO is more important than constantly putting up the points, because at the end of the day if everyone is puttin in the effort consistantly then the production from everyone will come.

This team is a direct reflection of Heatley and Spezza. They get paid to get this team into the playoffs and make them a contender, thats why they both make 7 million a year. You can say they need help, sure, maybe they do, but those 2 should be good enough on their own to get the Sens into the playoffs in a weak Eastern Conferance.

It took a rookie goaltender and a rookie coach to make the Sens 2nd 1/2 of the season somewhat respectable. The addition of Shannon also made things a little easier on the team.

I can't get too pissed at Fisher because he works so hard, hits so hard and plays the game the way it should be played. But...I do think that he's one of the reasons we failed this year. All the secondary guys actually. If they had been playing to a 50 point pace, it would have taken away some of the pressure that the top line feels.

But...it's been an abysmal season and I do actually see signs of Heatley checking out. Spezza's still around, but the last game was a forgettable one. Alfie's always on since healing himself.

There's a big part of me that just wants it to happen, like a band-aid. Trade Heatley, open the door to this team getting bigger, more aggressive and way harder to play against. And if you can't...then weigh offers for Spezza. BUT, I remain pretty firm in my belief that this team will be very, very competitive when/if Wiercioch, Karlsson et. can make an impact - and if Spezza or Heatley are gone, we might end up regretting it and scrambling to try to replace them.

Still...the draft can't come quickly enough for me. Let's do it, or let's not. I'm fairly prepared either way. Little and their first still sounds pretty good - if it was ever on the table. But again...it can't come soon enough so we can see some real progress one way or the other.

Guest


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It will take more than 3 or 4 years for two young D men to hit their stride, and even by then Heatley and Spezza may very well be gone or have a year left in their contract.

If you're counting on 2 young D men to build around, then you rebuild the front end as well in terms of skill and keep the hard workers and grinders.

WHo will replace the points? Does it matter? We missed the playoffs and might as well of last year. At the end of the day we are watching the Habs and Bruins in April and May, not the Sens. If people just want big names who put up big numbers, thats fine, but dont expect those guys to win anything here in Ottawa together.

davetherave

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It seems Bryan Murray decided that rather than taking responsibility as GM for the Senators' problems, he would place the blame on the players (as well as their former coach).

Allen Panzeri's article from this morning's Citizen explains:

Stars didn't shine, Murray says

Senators GM pins blame for poor season on players

By Allen Panzeri, The Ottawa CitizenApril 2, 2009 6:43 AM

Every time a coach gets fired in the National Hockey League, this cliché is used to justify it: Because you can't fire the players.

If it was that easy, Ottawa Senators general manager Bryan Murray might have been handing out pink slips on Wednesday afternoon.

Less than 24 hours before, the Senators had been eliminated from the Stanley Cup playoff race. It'll be the first time since 1995-96 that they have missed the postseason. Their 5-2 loss to the Florida Panthers coupled with Montreal's 4-1 victory against the Chicago Blackhawks ended the Senators' slim hopes.

In his assessment of this team's failure, Murray pointed the fingers at Senators players. Whether that does much is another question. It hasn't so far.

"For two years now, we've fired two coaches (John Paddock and Craig Hartsburg)," Murray said. "Whether they were the right people at the right time or not doesn't matter at this point.

"The players have to play.

"In the NHL, you play 82 games, and hopefully the playoffs on a regular basis, and to win, if your best players, who take a fair number of your dollars, don't perform on an every-night basis, then you're left wanting."

On this team, from the beginning of the season to today, even when the team is playing better, "we've had a number of guys underachieve," Murray said.

It's not difficult to pick out the prime suspects: Forwards Jason Spezza, Dany Heatley and Mike Fisher have had sub-par seasons, and goaltender Martin Gerber wasn't very good when he was here, which was why Murray demoted and eventually handed him off to the Toronto Maple Leafs through waivers.

The way NHL teams are structured under the salary cap, their top players have to be that much better because they get most of the money.

If they're not, Murray said, it doesn't matter what a team's second-, third- and fourth-line players do. Your team is just not going win.

Senators captain Daniel Alfredsson said he couldn't disagree with a word of what Murray said Wednesday.

"Especially now with the salary cap, every team has two top lines, or a top line in some cases, and throughout the season they have to be the difference most nights," Alfredsson said.

"As we've turned it around, I think that has been the case for us," Alfredsson said. "We know we've been able to do it in the past, and this obviously gives us confidence that we can do it again in the future.

"You learn through adversity. You find out a lot about individuals. I think the way we've bounced back shows a lot of character. It would have been easy for us to just go through the motions down the stretch ... but we've taken a lot of pride in the way we play and we're going to continue it down the stretch here."

Like Alfredsson, Murray was disappointed to see the Senators eliminated, but it wasn't unexpected. He knew they were fighting long odds, as did club owner Eugene Melnyk.

One topic Murray promises to raise in talks with the players is inconsistency. He was dismayed to see it for most of the season.

For example, Heatley has one point -- a goal -- in four games, while Fisher has one point -- an assist -- in four games.

"The teams that make it to the high spots in each conference are the ones that show up every night and play at a high level," Murray said. "They're led by their leaders. Their established stars have to play at a good level. When you do that, it carries over to everybody else."

With the acquisition of Pascal Leclaire, who is continuing he rehabilitation following surgery on his right ankle, Murray hopes he has solved the team's goaltending woes for next season. He'll look at defence and try to see what he can do there -- acquire Jay Bouwmeester, maybe? -- and then try to obtain another top-six forward. Is that Mike Comrie, who becomes a free agent this summer, or someone else?

Murray is pleased with the way the team has played under Cory Clouston, who was hired as coach after Hartsburg was fired in early February, but said the bar would still have to be raised even higher.

"I know what a number of these players have done," Murray said, "and I expect we meet that level of performance more often than not."

-----

Bryan Murray, it appears, knows the rules of survival at the top of the food chain: when pressed, admit that mistakes were made, but never admit that they were yours.

Mr Murray is an imposing individual, and clearly knows how to navigate the shark-infested waters of Big Hockey Business.

While one can look at Mr Murray's 'restocking' of the Senators' talent pipeline and use the apparent array of talent as an argument in his defense, the fact is none of that talent can be expected to provide an immediate solution.

And in terms of the future, can anyone be myopic enough to believe that other teams won't improve their personnel, making the job of returning the Senators to playoff contention more difficult?

One can put on Red White and Gold coloured glasses and talk about "having turned it around". But playing better under a new coach at a point in the season when the team's playoff aspirations were already severely compromised, skews the picture somewhat.

Let's not forget, a team that was 'more responsible defensively and harder to play against' was the promise from Mr Murray last year.

Fans could be forgiven for asking, "What promises will made, and broken, next year?"

Guest


Guest

Even Bryan Murray had to put faith in 2 guys that showed they might be worth 7 plus mil and the second both those guys signed their contracts its been down hill for the Sens.

Murray can be as crafty as he wants but the fact of the matter is faith and hope had to be put into Spezza and Heatley and thus far they have made Murray look like an as*hole.

EDIT: In the last 2 weeks this team has gone back to its old ways as well. People expecting this team to actually compete for the cup next year, or maybe even a playoff spot could be in for another long season. The last 2 years have been awful and its fine to have faith but what makes people think it will be any different? Unless the best players become the hardest working players then things wont change in Ottawa, you might have to change your "best players" so at least everyone else is working hard and competing.

Cap'n Clutch

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My assesment of Mr. Murray in his short time as GM is this:

1 - Coaching decisions sucked big time and this is all on him. Totally wrong moves with both Paddock and Hartsburgh.

2 - Drafting has been spot on and the re-build of Bingo is going well. His revamping of the Scouting staff has been good as well.

3 - What he tried to do (Make the team tougher to play against) may have worked if he hadn't been so terrible at picking coaches.

4 - The acquisition of Ruutu and re-signing of Donovan at his price were excellent moves. I also would have been happier with the Smith signing if we'd been able to do more in terms of PMDs.

5 - The signings of Spezza and Heatley at the time were greeted with praise and I don't think too many GMs would have disagreed with his choice there. His extension of Alfie was nice as well.

6 - The Fisher signing looks terrible right now but I will reserve judgment until November of next season to see if it truly was a big error. Don't forget he did sign him for less than market value at the time. Should he have walked away? Perhaps he should have but as I said I will reserve judgment.

7 - Re-signing of Kuba has actually turned into a pretty smart move. Acquiring him and Picard for Meszaros still looks good even though Picard doesn't.

8 - Moving Grats for anything is actually amazing

9 - Trading McAmmond and a pick for Campoli and Comrie is pretty good value and I like the move personally

10 - Not overpaying for Campbell and passing on acquiring Boyle has hurt the teams short term success but may turn out to be a good thing in terms of the Salary Cap.

11 - Finally getting the coaching choice right? Jury's still out on this one IMHO.

Edit: How could I forget goaltending. Wrong move on Emery but hopefully it's fixed with Leclaire but we shall see.


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shabbs

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Neely4Life wrote:Murray can be as crafty as he wants but the fact of the matter is faith and hope had to be put into Spezza and Heatley and thus far they have made Murray look like an as*hole.
Ahhhh N4L... so eloquent and balanced with your words...

Wink

Guest


Guest

Haha, well its true. They have made Murray look like an idiot for signing those 2 for a combined 14.5 mil per year.

Since they have signed the Sens have been one of the leagues worst teams. You can have your opinions on things, but results are results.

Guest


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Cap'n Clutch wrote:My assesment of Mr. Murray in his short time as GM is this:

1 - Coaching decisions sucked big time and this is all on him. Totally wrong moves with both Paddock and Hartsburgh.

2 - Drafting has been spot on and the re-build of Bingo is going well. His revamping of the Scouting staff has been good as well.

3 - What he tried to do (Make the team tougher to play against) may have worked if he hadn't been so terrible at picking coaches.

4 - The acquisition of Ruutu and re-signing of Donovan at his price were excellent moves. I also would have been happier with the Smith signing if we'd been able to do more in terms of PMDs.

5 - The signings of Spezza and Heatley at the time were greeted with praise and I don't think too many GMs would have disagreed with his choice there. His extension of Alfie was nice as well.

6 - The Fisher signing looks terrible right now but I will reserve judgment until November of next season to see if it truly was a big error. Don't forget he did sign him for less than market value at the time. Should he have walked away? Perhaps he should have but as I said I will reserve judgment.

7 - Re-signing of Kuba has actually turned into a pretty smart move. Acquiring him and Picard for Meszaros still looks good even though Picard doesn't.

8 - Moving Grats for anything is actually amazing

9 - Trading McAmmond and a pick for Campoli and Comrie is pretty good value and I like the move personally

10 - Not overpaying for Campbell and passing on acquiring Boyle has hurt the teams short term success but may turn out to be a good thing in terms of the Salary Cap.

11 - Finally getting the coaching choice right? Jury's still out on this one IMHO.

Edit: How could I forget goaltending. Wrong move on Emery but hopefully it's fixed with Leclaire but we shall see.

I agree completely Clutch. Murray has done well on eveything but coach selection. In all fairness I think Hartsburg presented himself as something he wasn't. Paddock was a promote from within philosophy that went all wong. My opinion is that Clouson sems to be the answer and I would like to see him resigned. (Never thought I would say that on the day he was hired though)

Cap'n Clutch

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MurderOnIce wrote:
Cap'n Clutch wrote:My assesment of Mr. Murray in his short time as GM is this:

1 - Coaching decisions sucked big time and this is all on him. Totally wrong moves with both Paddock and Hartsburgh.

2 - Drafting has been spot on and the re-build of Bingo is going well. His revamping of the Scouting staff has been good as well.

3 - What he tried to do (Make the team tougher to play against) may have worked if he hadn't been so terrible at picking coaches.

4 - The acquisition of Ruutu and re-signing of Donovan at his price were excellent moves. I also would have been happier with the Smith signing if we'd been able to do more in terms of PMDs.

5 - The signings of Spezza and Heatley at the time were greeted with praise and I don't think too many GMs would have disagreed with his choice there. His extension of Alfie was nice as well.

6 - The Fisher signing looks terrible right now but I will reserve judgment until November of next season to see if it truly was a big error. Don't forget he did sign him for less than market value at the time. Should he have walked away? Perhaps he should have but as I said I will reserve judgment.

7 - Re-signing of Kuba has actually turned into a pretty smart move. Acquiring him and Picard for Meszaros still looks good even though Picard doesn't.

8 - Moving Grats for anything is actually amazing

9 - Trading McAmmond and a pick for Campoli and Comrie is pretty good value and I like the move personally

10 - Not overpaying for Campbell and passing on acquiring Boyle has hurt the teams short term success but may turn out to be a good thing in terms of the Salary Cap.

11 - Finally getting the coaching choice right? Jury's still out on this one IMHO.

Edit: How could I forget goaltending. Wrong move on Emery but hopefully it's fixed with Leclaire but we shall see.

I agree completely Clutch. Murray has done well on eveything but coach selection. In all fairness I think Hartsburg presented himself as something he wasn't. Paddock was a promote from within philosophy that went all wong. My opinion is that Clouson sems to be the answer and I would like to see him resigned. (Never thought I would say that on the day he was hired though)

I'm on some kind of roll here. First I do the report card and Shabbs I think, agrees with every grade except Ruutu, then I post an Awards thread and Neely agrees completely and finally I post this assesement of Murray and you agree with everything. It's hard to have a debate when that happens though Wink


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Cronie

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Completely agree. There still remains to be some room for improvement on the Sens part so I'll be watching Murray awfully closely to see what he does to address these needs.

On a side note, I can't seem to send PM's... I keep getting a general Error about not being able to acquire Users pm info or something to that effect... Anyone else encountering this issue?!

davetherave

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Cap'n Clutch wrote:

3 - What he tried to do (Make the team tougher to play against) may have worked if he hadn't been so terrible at picking coaches.

5 - The signings of Spezza and Heatley at the time were greeted with praise and I don't think too many GMs would have disagreed with his choice there. His extension of Alfie was nice as well.

11 - Finally getting the coaching choice right? Jury's still out on this one IMHO.


Cap,

As always, a well thought out perspective from you...

However:

Point 3: Might have worked? :KJK: Murray says he's changing the focus of the team and hires a coach (Hartsburg) who says is The Man to make it happen. it. Both of Murray's decisions blew up in his face as a result. Who made the decision to change the focus? Who made the coaching decision?

Point 5: "Greeted with praise?" By who? The Sens PR department? I remember very well the skepticism from the hockey media and a number of Sens fans on some other forums (including some boards whose names we don't mention LOL).

Point 11: Gee, you'd think he'd get it right the third time, eh.

On the Sens Report Card for 2009-10, Mr Murray gets an 'F' from me. This season has been a disaster for them, and it all stems from his failure to make substantive improvements after last year's debacle.

He's a smart guy, and he's paid to make smart decisions. Not enough of those at this point.

PTFlea

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davetherave wrote:
Point 3: Might have worked? :KJK: Murray says he's changing the focus of the team and hires a coach (Hartsburg) who says is The Man to make it happen. it. Both of Murray's decisions blew up in his face as a result. Who made the decision to change the focus? Who made the coaching decision?

Point 5: "Greeted with praise?" By who? The Sens PR department? I remember very well the skepticism from the hockey media and a number of Sens fans on some other forums (including some boards whose names we don't mention LOL).

Point 11: Gee, you'd think he'd get it right the third time, eh.

On the Sens Report Card for 2009-10, Mr Murray gets an 'F' from me. This season has been a disaster for them, and it all stems from his failure to make substantive improvements after last year's debacle.

He's a smart guy, and he's paid to make smart decisions. Not enough of those at this point.

An 'F', really? The fact that he can draft might push him up. Also, the signings of Spezza and Heatley were below market value at the time - especially Heatley.

I would give him a C- for not getting Boyle and perhaps facilitating a trade mid-season when Dung wasn't working. If you could have moved Spezza, mid-season would've been neat. MacDonald, Little, someone who's good enough to step in and still make an impact.

But an F? Reserve that for the tools in Tampa Bay - who HAD Danny Boyle and let him walk for nothing, for over-paying Vinny in this market and age, for overpaying Meszaros (although that's debatable), for signing every forward under the sun and then waiving Jokinen, Ouellet and making Vrbada leave the country.

The only move I thought was any good at all was Mike Smith and Halpern for Richards. Great trade. Their goaltending should be good for the next 2 years. But that trade was last year.

Wost. Run. Franchise. Ever. Facepalm

shabbs

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Cap'n Clutch wrote:I'm on some kind of roll here. First I do the report card and Shabbs I think, agrees with every grade except Ruutu, then I post an Awards thread and Neely agrees completely and finally I post this assesement of Murray and you agree with everything. It's hard to have a debate when that happens though Wink
A roll you are on indeed.

Cap'n Clutch

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davetherave wrote:
Cap'n Clutch wrote:

3 - What he tried to do (Make the team tougher to play against) may have worked if he hadn't been so terrible at picking coaches.

5 - The signings of Spezza and Heatley at the time were greeted with praise and I don't think too many GMs would have disagreed with his choice there. His extension of Alfie was nice as well.

11 - Finally getting the coaching choice right? Jury's still out on this one IMHO.


Cap,

As always, a well thought out perspective from you...

However:

Point 3: Might have worked? :KJK: Murray says he's changing the focus of the team and hires a coach (Hartsburg) who says is The Man to make it happen. it. Both of Murray's decisions blew up in his face as a result. Who made the decision to change the focus? Who made the coaching decision?

Your point falls under coaching decision which I already said was a fail don't make it morphe in to more than one point.


Point 5: "Greeted with praise?" By who? The Sens PR department? I remember very well the skepticism from the hockey media and a number of Sens fans on some other forums (including some boards whose names we don't mention LOL).

Yes it was and as Heater pointed out it was below market value. I don't know what media you were reading but it wasn't wide spread.

Point 11: Gee, you'd think he'd get it right the third time, eh.

Again his coaching mistakes were already addressed in the first point.

On the Sens Report Card for 2009-10, Mr Murray gets an 'F' from me. This season has been a disaster for them, and it all stems from his failure to make substantive improvements after last year's debacle.

Murray gets a fail for overall team performance but this was an assesment of Murray's performance as a GM overall in a very short time when it comes to what a GM can accomplish.

He's a smart guy, and he's paid to make smart decisions. Not enough of those at this point.

I've outlined all his smart decisions and his bone head ones so far have been coaching and an inability to find a bonafide PMD.



See my responses above in BOLD.


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davetherave

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504Heater wrote:
An 'F', really? The fact that he can draft might push him up. Also, the signings of Spezza and Heatley were below market value at the time - especially Heatley.

I would give him a C- for not getting Boyle and perhaps facilitating a trade mid-season when Dung wasn't working. If you could have moved Spezza, mid-season would've been neat. MacDonald, Little, someone who's good enough to step in and still make an impact.

But an F? Reserve that for the tools in Tampa Bay - who HAD Danny Boyle and let him walk for nothing, for over-paying Vinny in this market and age, for overpaying Meszaros (although that's debatable), for signing every forward under the sun and then waiving Jokinen, Ouellet and making Vrbada leave the country.

The only move I thought was any good at all was Mike Smith and Halpern for Richards. Great trade. Their goaltending should be good for the next 2 years. But that trade was last year.

Worst. Run. Franchise. Ever. Facepalm

Yes, an F for the Shawville Shaman.

You're letting Murray off the hook because Ottawa isn't as bad as Tampa?

Why bother with the comparison?

There's no grade low enough for their implosion this year--at the tail end of several bad years, by the way. As you said, worst run franchise (in terms of the on-ice product).

The Bolts were already bad, and the circus opened early on there, starring Two Clowns and The Mullet. No surprise they crashed.

But they ate their serving of fried crow. You don't see Brian Lawton coming out and blaming the players, and he's not making excuses for the hiring and firing of Barry Melrose--who got the boot early.

davetherave

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Cap'n Clutch wrote:
See my responses above in BOLD.

And BOLD they are. cool)

But while you may be ready to give Mr Murray the benefit of the doubt, the fact is that the Senators, under his tenure as GM, have fallen precipitously from being a Stanley Cup finalist to a team that was seriously in the lead, at times this year, for the 'Tavares-Hedman Cup'.

PTFlea

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davetherave wrote:
Yes, an F for the Shawville Shaman.

You're letting Murray off the hook because Ottawa isn't as bad as Tampa?

Why bother with the comparison?

There's no grade low enough for their implosion this year--at the tail end of several bad years, by the way. As you said, worst run franchise (in terms of the on-ice product).

The Bolts were already bad, and the circus opened early on there, starring Two Clowns and The Mullet. No surprise they crashed.

But they ate their serving of fried crow. You don't see Brian Lawton coming out and blaming the players, and he's not making excuses for the hiring and firing of Barry Melrose--who got the boot early.

He's got no one who would listen to him anyway. Murray has a point, he's pissed off. He's spend 7 million on Spezza, 7.5 on Heatley and most debilitating 4.2 million on Fisher - who's scoring like a 1.75 million dollar player would. That hurts, it makes him look bad, it makes the franchise look bad - and ultimately it cost us a playoff spot.

You know my take on the state of affairs from earlier in this thread. Murray is to blame for sure, but a lot of it falls on the players as well.

It's also diddling frustrating to know that everyone here knew that we needed a)a PMD - and a great one and b) a goalie and he addressed neither. Luckily Kuba's turned out to be quite good though, but we need that Gonchar style D-man...like Danny Boyle. Crying

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