GAME DAY: Ottawa Senators @ Nashville Predators - 8:00pm ET - Mon. Feb. 16th, 2009

davetherave wrote:

Neely4Life wrote:In fairness to Murray he wasnt the one that tied 3.7 mil up in Gerber and was forced to do something because Meszaros wanted way more money than the guy is worth. Going forward the cap isnt an issue for Ottawa.

On top of that Poile has drafted very well and his scouting staff is top notch, not so much in the Muckler era. Muckler really put this team back 3, 4, 5 years in terms of prospects and picks.

Are you still hanging this one on Muckler?

Didn't Murray tie up the lion's share of his cap in four forwards, and go through four coaches?

Poile and Trotz are models of stability and efficiency.

The players in our system right now, any of the good ones aside from a 9th roudner used to take Elliott are all Murray's guys. All of Mucklers are in Russia or just not good enough to play in NA.

Murray def got the coaches wrong 2 times in Ottawa, no doubt, but it looks like he might have finally found the guy. Should it have taken this long? No, prob not, but in the long run this might be the way things had to go for the Sens to be the team we all want them too.

Personally, I think Murray has done a great job in Ottawa despite the coaches.

davetherave wrote:
Are you still hanging this one on Muckler?

Didn't Murray tie up the lion's share of his cap in four forwards, and go through four coaches?

Poile and Trotz are models of stability and efficiency.

Nashville's top 4 forwards:

Arnott - 4.5
Erat - 4.5
Legwand - 4.5
Dumont - 4

Ottawa's top 4:

Heatley - 7.5
Spezza - 7
Alfredsson - 5.4
Fisher - 4.2

The difference is 6.6 million and the talent level isn't even on the same planet. Nashville has been good at cultivating (then trading) goaltending talent - and they have a wonderful nucleus of D and luckily for them Weber and Suter are signed to sweetheart deals.

Nothing about the Preds screams anything but 'on the outside looking into the playoffs' - for the next...X number of years - I'll say they become more competitive just as Weber's contract is done and he's looking for 7 million.

We suck this year, that's obvious, we sucked the last half of last year too - and that makes some of the contracts look bad, but I'd rather be in our position than in theirs.

N4L, 504H, hockeyhero...spirited response, as expected. Well then, the next few years will show who is smarter...David Poile or Bryan Murray.

PS it's not the talent you have...it's what you do with it.

Nashville gave the Wings a much harder time than the Sens gave the Pens in last year's playoffs; and the Preds are much closer to a playoff berth than Ottawa.

Agreed?

davetherave wrote:

Neely4Life wrote:In fairness to Murray he wasnt the one that tied 3.7 mil up in Gerber and was forced to do something because Meszaros wanted way more money than the guy is worth. Going forward the cap isnt an issue for Ottawa.

On top of that Poile has drafted very well and his scouting staff is top notch, not so much in the Muckler era. Muckler really put this team back 3, 4, 5 years in terms of prospects and picks.

Are you still hanging this one on Muckler?

Didn't Murray tie up the lion's share of his cap in four forwards, and go through four coaches?

Poile and Trotz are models of stability and efficiency.

How do you include Murray himself in the list of coaches he's gone through?

And are you talking about the Nashville Predators? The same Nashville Predators who have never won a playoff series? And you think that they're somehow the shinning example of what we aren't and what we should be?

You're original post on the subject holds no water. Using the salary cap to somehow justify or condemn a GM is an extremely narrow view of the situation. Likewise, comparing such significantly different teams is a useless exercise.
Using the 11th place Preds for any condemnation of the Sens is just nonsense.

Beyond any of that, the only rational way to compare Murray's GMing here and Poile's GMing there is to compare Murray's tenure against the first year and a half of Poile's in Nashville....And even that is pointless.

There's an underlying anger to the way you've broached the subject that seems well out of place. I'm not quite sure what thats about.

davetherave wrote:
Nashville gave the Wings a much harder time than the Sens gave the Pens in last year's playoffs; and the Preds are much closer to a playoff berth than Ottawa.

Agreed?

How is that at all relevant to anything? The Sens were in utter disarray last year and they backed into the playoffs. It was a foregone conclusion that Pittsburgh would dominate us.

Cash, no anger here. Not sure why you see it that way.

Giving Poile and Trotz credit for the excellent work they have done with limited resources.

What don't you think is fair about making comparisons for purposes of discussion, my friend?

Neely4Life wrote:

davetherave wrote:

Neely4Life wrote:In fairness to Murray he wasnt the one that tied 3.7 mil up in Gerber and was forced to do something because Meszaros wanted way more money than the guy is worth. Going forward the cap isnt an issue for Ottawa.

On top of that Poile has drafted very well and his scouting staff is top notch, not so much in the Muckler era. Muckler really put this team back 3, 4, 5 years in terms of prospects and picks.

Are you still hanging this one on Muckler?

Didn't Murray tie up the lion's share of his cap in four forwards, and go through four coaches?

Poile and Trotz are models of stability and efficiency.

The players in our system right now, any of the good ones aside from a 9th roudner used to take Elliott are all Murray's guys. All of Mucklers are in Russia or just not good enough to play in NA.

Murray def got the coaches wrong 2 times in Ottawa, no doubt, but it looks like he might have finally found the guy. Should it have taken this long? No, prob not, but in the long run this might be the way things had to go for the Sens to be the team we all want them too.

Personally, I think Murray has done a great job in Ottawa despite the coaches.

Me too (although Muckler did draft Condra, Foligno, and Lee; so we'll see how that all goes)

davetherave wrote:Cash, no anger here. Not sure why you see it that way.

Giving Poile and Trotz credit for the excellent work they have done with limited resources.

What don't you think is fair about making comparisons for purposes of discussion, my friend?

I just don't see the comparison's between the franchises...
The makeup of the rosters are virtual opposites; the management structure and history is dissimilar; the economic situation and franchise viability is significantly different...I just don't see how anything about Nashville is relevant to the Sens.

I understand the point you're making Dave - and it's an interesting one - but I think the time to judge these small market teams with internal caps will be 3 years down the road when the Preds wouldn't even have Weber in their fold because another team would simple outbid for them via offer sheet.

Parity is a huge thing, but parity in the NHL never included internal caps in their initial thought process.

What you see from the Preds now is what you're gonna get for the next...200 years . They're in this NHL to breed players for other teams to eventually take. Unfortunate, but definitely true.

The Preds should certainly be admired for overcoming substantial losses.

One off-season, they lose Vokoun, Timonen, Hartnell, Kariya, Forsberg, Sullivan and more.

I think the Radulov situation really hurts though. He was supposed to be their offensive leader this season. They've got their defence and goaltending absolutely down but they'll need to spend more if they ever want their offence to be taken seriously.

Wilson at the draft will probably help in that regard, although it's possible he's just a replacement for Arnott.

Cash, no disrespect meant to the Sens of course, and sorry to see you take it that way.

The Preds are only in their tenth season. The Senators are in their sixteenth.

Their parallel histories are interesting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nashville_Predators_seasons
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ottawa_Senators_seasons

Nashville's first round playoff opponents for the last four years have been the number one teams in the West: the Red Wings and the Sharks, both powerhouses. The Preds have hung tough every time, just overwhelmed by superior talent.

IMHO there are things that can be learned from how the Preds have built their team with a small budget, and in the face of having to trade key players to reduce salary.

David Poile has chosen stability and efficiency as the hallmarks of his approach. Barry Trotz is an outstanding motivator.

Bryan Murray, on the other hand, has an open chequebook from Eugene Melnyk, and the liberty of changing bench bosses as he sees fit. In his first two seasons, his team has gone from Cup finalist to bottom five.

IMHO there are some interesting points of comparison.

Make sense?

There's no argument here...just presenting you with a different point of view and interested in your response.

Should be a good game tonight.

Trotz Vs Clouston's a good matchup.
:D

Also - and this is just throwing it out there - but as good as Martin Erat is, would you rather have 7 years of him at 4.5, or would you rather Jason Spezza for 2.5 million more?

As much as I've pissed on Spezza this year, I'm still all about him at 7 over Erat at 4.5 (again, just my opinion).

504Heater wrote:Also - and this is just throwing it out there - but as good as Martin Erat is, would you rather have 7 years of him at 4.5, or would you rather Jason Spezza for 2.5 million more?

As much as I've pissed on Spezza this year, I'm still all about him at 7 over Erat at 4.5 (again, just my opinion).

Well, my answer is that I'd rather have Shea Weber than Jason Spezza...

davetherave wrote:Yeah, but does Mike Fisher have a date with Carrie Underwood before or after the game?

'Inquiring Minds Need to Know'.
:lol!:

I believe the correct tag line should be 'Get way into the game'. That's a Pro*Line ad right there.

Amen. Dave

davetherave wrote:Cash, no disrespect meant to the Sens of course, and sorry to see you take it that way.

The Preds are only in their tenth season. The Senators are in their sixteenth.

Their parallel histories are interesting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nashville_Predators_seasons
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ottawa_Senators_seasons

Nashville's first round playoff opponents for the last four years have been the number one teams in the West: the Red Wings and the Sharks, both powerhouses. The Preds have hung tough every time, just overwhelmed by superior talent.

IMHO there are things that can be learned from how the Preds have built their team with a small budget, and in the face of having to trade key players to reduce salary.

David Poile has chosen stability and efficiency as the hallmarks of his approach. Barry Trotz is an outstanding motivator.

Bryan Murray, on the other hand, has an open chequebook from Eugene Melnyk, and the liberty of changing bench bosses as he sees fit. In his first two seasons, his team has gone from Cup finalist to bottom five.

IMHO there are some interesting points of comparison.

Make sense?

There's no argument here...just presenting you with a different point of view and interested in your response.

Should be a good game tonight.

Trotz Vs Clouston's a good matchup.
:D

I see what you're saying, Dave, and you make some interesting points; but I think it would be more logical to compare The Preds of today to the Sens of 2000 - our 4th straight playoff season.

The part I've bolded is absolutely fair, but - again - I'm just not sure how relevant it is to the way our team has (and will) conduct business.

Mainly, I just don't think any comparison between the two can be used to condemn the action/non-action of Bryan Murray. Murray has not had enough time on the job to be judged reasonably. Given his own respective limitations as GM of this organization (including cleaning up a dressing room, resurrecting a farm team, navigating a Cap in an attempt to stay competitive while securing the future) I think Bryan Murray has done an excellent job as GM and I'm not sure I or anyone else could have done any better.

davetherave wrote:

Well, my answer is that I'd rather have Shea Weber than Jason Spezza...

Absolutely. Now imagine having Weber and Spezza (or someone of the equivalent). But there's zero chance of that ever happening the way the Preds operate.

oh damnit Heater... Weber AND Spezza?!?! I'm drooling!!