GDT: Preseason #6 - TML @ OTT - 29/09/2010 - 7:30pm

at least he'll have a good 9 games to figure out what Cowen will need. regardless of his performance the rest of the way now, he is definitely pencilled in with Lee as the 6th/7th d-men. Its a good point about picking up bad habits in junior but the sens brass will have their eyes on the kid. Whatever bad habits he's got have already been pointed out to him and will continually be reminded and told to fix these things in junior. He needs some high level competition and World Juniors will be perfect. he could be kept around by the sens and then sent off to the jrs but I doubt that will happen because of his cap hit.

but damn AHL would have been perfect. Just freakin' perfect

Michallica wrote:at least he'll have a good 9 games to figure out what Cowen will need. regardless of his performance the rest of the way now, he is definitely pencilled in with Lee as the 6th/7th d-men. Its a good point about picking up bad habits in junior but the sens brass will have their eyes on the kid. Whatever bad habits he's got have already been pointed out to him and will continually be reminded and told to fix these things in junior. He needs some high level competition and World Juniors will be perfect. he could be kept around by the sens and then sent off to the jrs but I doubt that will happen because of his cap hit.

but damn AHL would have been perfect. Just freakin' perfect

I kind of disagree. I think Weircioch has been the better of the two. I wouldn't be surprised to see him get the 9 game tester instead of Cowen. I think Pat's skating is definitely a notch above Cowen's and that should help him at least compete with other NHLers. Plus, his hockey sense seems to be slightly better than Cowen's who's been caught a couple of times trying to make very low percentage plays.

Michallica wrote:at least he'll have a good 9 games to figure out what Cowen will need. regardless of his performance the rest of the way now, he is definitely pencilled in with Lee as the 6th/7th d-men. Its a good point about picking up bad habits in junior but the sens brass will have their eyes on the kid. Whatever bad habits he's got have already been pointed out to him and will continually be reminded and told to fix these things in junior. He needs some high level competition and World Juniors will be perfect. he could be kept around by the sens and then sent off to the jrs but I doubt that will happen because of his cap hit.

but damn AHL would have been perfect. Just freakin' perfect

The world juniors is hardly high level competition for Canada...2 or 3 games (Russia, Sweden maybe, and the US) isn't going to help up that much...he really needs a full season of high competition and yes the AHL would have been perfect

PKC wrote:

Michallica wrote:at least he'll have a good 9 games to figure out what Cowen will need. regardless of his performance the rest of the way now, he is definitely pencilled in with Lee as the 6th/7th d-men. Its a good point about picking up bad habits in junior but the sens brass will have their eyes on the kid. Whatever bad habits he's got have already been pointed out to him and will continually be reminded and told to fix these things in junior. He needs some high level competition and World Juniors will be perfect. he could be kept around by the sens and then sent off to the jrs but I doubt that will happen because of his cap hit.

but damn AHL would have been perfect. Just freakin' perfect

I kind of disagree. I think Weircioch has been the better of the two. I wouldn't be surprised to see him get the 9 game tester instead of Cowen. I think Pat's skating is definitely a notch above Cowen's and that should help him at least compete with other NHLers. Plus, his hockey sense seems to be slightly better than Cowen's who's been caught a couple of times trying to make very low percentage plays.

Weircioch is making a case in the last few games, but he's on a two-way deal. He'll solidify first callup dibs but this is pretty much Cowen's only shot to play in the NHL this season (save for the last portion) and he's going to get it for the time he's allowed.

mickbud wrote:

Michallica wrote:at least he'll have a good 9 games to figure out what Cowen will need. regardless of his performance the rest of the way now, he is definitely pencilled in with Lee as the 6th/7th d-men. Its a good point about picking up bad habits in junior but the sens brass will have their eyes on the kid. Whatever bad habits he's got have already been pointed out to him and will continually be reminded and told to fix these things in junior. He needs some high level competition and World Juniors will be perfect. he could be kept around by the sens and then sent off to the jrs but I doubt that will happen because of his cap hit.

but damn AHL would have been perfect. Just freakin' perfect

The world juniors is hardly high level competition for Canada...2 or 3 games (Russia, Sweden maybe, and the US) isn't going to help up that much...he really needs a full season of high competition and yes the AHL would have been perfect

Perhaps, but the pressure mounts alot. I'm sure he'd like to prove that the last performance at the juniors wasn't the correct perception, and I think he's got a great shot to be a captain of the squad. This is where he learns to lead and win, and gain TONS of confidence.

Michallica wrote:

PKC wrote:

Michallica wrote:at least he'll have a good 9 games to figure out what Cowen will need. regardless of his performance the rest of the way now, he is definitely pencilled in with Lee as the 6th/7th d-men. Its a good point about picking up bad habits in junior but the sens brass will have their eyes on the kid. Whatever bad habits he's got have already been pointed out to him and will continually be reminded and told to fix these things in junior. He needs some high level competition and World Juniors will be perfect. he could be kept around by the sens and then sent off to the jrs but I doubt that will happen because of his cap hit.

but damn AHL would have been perfect. Just freakin' perfect

I kind of disagree. I think Weircioch has been the better of the two. I wouldn't be surprised to see him get the 9 game tester instead of Cowen. I think Pat's skating is definitely a notch above Cowen's and that should help him at least compete with other NHLers. Plus, his hockey sense seems to be slightly better than Cowen's who's been caught a couple of times trying to make very low percentage plays.

Weircioch is making a case in the last few games, but he's on a two-way deal. He'll solidify first callup dibs but this is pretty much Cowen's only shot to play in the NHL this season (save for the last portion) and he's going to get it for the time he's allowed.

I don't think that line of thinking makes any sense. You put the BPA in to the lineup, not the guy who everyone will feel bad for if he doesn't play his 9 games, as if there were some unspoken rule with rookies that they must play the 9 allowable games before they get sent back down to junior/minor/whatever.

I didn't say you put him in the lineup because they'll feel bad for him. Its good experience for him, and Kuba is injured. He brings a dimension that is lacking right now. Weircioch is another puck mover and not physical. I don't think its that hard to understand this logic that they'll give cowen the chance to play some games while Kuba recovers and then most likely bolt him back to the WHL. Remember, I'm talking about the first 9 games. Weircioch is great but he's not what the senators need at the moment

Michallica wrote:I didn't say you put him in the lineup because they'll feel bad for him. Its good experience for him, and Kuba is injured. He brings a dimension that is lacking right now. Weircioch is another puck mover and not physical. I don't think its that hard to understand this logic that they'll give cowen the chance to play some games while Kuba recovers and then most likely bolt him back to the WHL. Remember, I'm talking about the first 9 games. Weircioch is great but he's not what the senators need at the moment

We'll agree to disagree. Cowen isn't ready to play in the NHL yet. Not even on a 9 game trial. Watch the highlights from the game last night. Cowen looked really bad on the first two Toronto goals.

On the first one, he tried clearing the puck through a crowd instead of going off the glass. Like come on, that's basic stuff they teach you in minors. Always go high off the glass, there's almost no chance that the puck can be kept in without accounting for a freak bounce of a stanchion.
Then on the same play, to further exacerbate the issue, he somehow managed to get himself out of position in the span of 2 seconds. Instead of playing the body, he takes a useless swing at the puck. 1-0 Leafs.

On the second goal, he got caught completely in no man's land on the right side of Leclaire with the puck on the left side of Leclaire. Michalek ends up coming from out of view from behind him to try to close the guy coming on net (Kadri). One guy sees the play developing because he's not puck watching (Michalek) the other guy isn't paying enough attention on the ice. Beauchemin who was circling around the net already had Carkner playing him in man coverage rather than the 2-2 zone they usually play on the penalty kill (sometimes they also play 1-2-1 diamond formation). It means he's not reading the play at NHL speed yet. Can he learn that much in a 9 game frame. I happen to think he can't. It won't hurt him to play the 9 games, but it might end up costing the Sens a couple of goals against that shouldn't happen. Especially against teams with far superior offensive punch to the Leafs.

mickbud wrote:
He is far from awesome right now, he has a really bad habit of using one hand to poke at the puck. I'm sure it worked in junior a lot since he's huge compared to most in junior but NHL players are far too good at beating that. It's kinda sad to say but he needs to keep two hands on the stick, most of us learn that when we're in mites. Very lazy play, use that frame big guy...probably another reason he shouldn't go back to junior, players tend to get bad habits when they play with inferior talent...AHL would be ideal but that obviously can't happen...anywho, the guy will be awesome, it's just going to take some time

You can't really look at it like that. Every Norris winner in the last 200 years has used an effective poke-check to dislodge puck - especially when they're 6'5". Cowen's wingspan is amazing and he's really efficient at moving pucks out of player's skates along the boards.

IMO it has zero to do with being lazy, Cowen and lazy don't go hand in hand at all - even if what you're referring to is mentally lazy. The issue that I have is that he can play positionally (last night wasn't his shining moment though) in the NHL, use his wingspan to effectively cut down opponent chances, but it's his reading of the play that's lagging behind a little.

Karlsson is the perfect example of a D-man with a ridiculously high hockey IQ - and it got him into the NHL right away. With Cowen, the IQ is there, almost as high, but he's a lot more raw and needs time in the pros to adapt to the quickness that decisions have to be made. One example was the first goal (I think) last night where he cleared it right to the point. Can't have that, it always leads to either shots, or forces people to block shots or goalies to make amazing saves.

I guess we'll have to live with Cowen being in the WHL until next camp, then re-assess whether or not he can make the jump to this level. I still would say the kid's awesome though. He's shown enough flashes of dominance in the pre-season to be dubbed 'the next big thing on our blueline'. To me, as much as I like the idea of the Wiercioch, that dude can be lifted off the puck without any issues, whereas physically, Cowen is much, much harder to move.

Overall I agree, it'll take some more time unfortunately, but Cowen (IMO) is real close to being an 'awesome' D-man - already.

PKC wrote:
On the first one, he tried clearing the puck through a crowd instead of going off the glass. Like come on, that's basic stuff they teach you in minors. Always go high off the glass, there's almost no chance that the puck can be kept in without accounting for a freak bounce of a stanchion. Then on the same play, to further exacerbate the issue, he somehow managed to get himself out of position in the span of 2 seconds. Instead of playing the body, he takes a useless swing at the puck. 1-0 Leafs.

The minute that happened last night I thought, there goes his chance at the NHL this year. Seriously I did too, you can't make that mistake in the pros, you'll be eaten alive. It's not just him that was doing it last night, but he had some real issues clearing pucks and players - and Toronto was icing a near NHL team.

I'd tell him that he's going to be an NHLer and not to be discouraged, but also to work on decision making elements of the game in the W, as well asserting himself even more physically.

Which is what I'm 99.9% sure will happen. He might get the 9 games, I mean...he's not really a liability until he does something like that, but in the end, I think we can all agree that he needs more development time, just like Lehner, Wiercioch, Gryba, Butler, Hoffman et. all. It'll end up making him that much better IMO.

SpezDispenser wrote:

PKC wrote:
On the first one, he tried clearing the puck through a crowd instead of going off the glass. Like come on, that's basic stuff they teach you in minors. Always go high off the glass, there's almost no chance that the puck can be kept in without accounting for a freak bounce of a stanchion. Then on the same play, to further exacerbate the issue, he somehow managed to get himself out of position in the span of 2 seconds. Instead of playing the body, he takes a useless swing at the puck. 1-0 Leafs.

The minute that happened last night I thought, there goes his chance at the NHL this year. Seriously I did too, you can't make that mistake in the pros, you'll be eaten alive. It's not just him that was doing it last night, but he had some real issues clearing pucks and players - and Toronto was icing a near NHL team.

I'd tell him that he's going to be an NHLer and not to be discouraged, but also to work on decision making elements of the game in the W, as well asserting himself even more physically.

Which is what I'm 99.9% sure will happen. He might get the 9 games, I mean...he's not really a liability until he does something like that, but in the end, I think we can all agree that he needs more development time, just like Lehner, Wiercioch, Gryba, Butler, Hoffman et. all. It'll end up making him that much better IMO.

The second Toronto goal was the big one for me though. Because he got caught watching the puck. It's such a huge no-no in the NHL for any player. Especially when you're not even remotely close to being involved in the play around the puck. The penalty kill is set play situation. It's like taking it straight out of a playbook. When you see your defensive partner circling behind the net, don't stand and watch what he or the player he's covering are doing. You gotta get at it and start watching for guys coming at the net. He should know better. It's a basic simple hockey play. Beauchemin isn't going to shoot it through the back of the net.

I was so angry about that play. Because you had to see Michalek come out of view to try to cut off the play, instead of this 6'5" giant with the wingspan of a pterodactyl reacting. Disappointing. I don't know if he's just mentally not ready or if he just needs to adjust to NHL game style and speed.

But when you're making mistakes as elementary as that, you're gonna have a tough time landing a full time job with the team.

PKC wrote:

SpezDispenser wrote:

PKC wrote:
On the first one, he tried clearing the puck through a crowd instead of going off the glass. Like come on, that's basic stuff they teach you in minors. Always go high off the glass, there's almost no chance that the puck can be kept in without accounting for a freak bounce of a stanchion. Then on the same play, to further exacerbate the issue, he somehow managed to get himself out of position in the span of 2 seconds. Instead of playing the body, he takes a useless swing at the puck. 1-0 Leafs.

The minute that happened last night I thought, there goes his chance at the NHL this year. Seriously I did too, you can't make that mistake in the pros, you'll be eaten alive. It's not just him that was doing it last night, but he had some real issues clearing pucks and players - and Toronto was icing a near NHL team.

I'd tell him that he's going to be an NHLer and not to be discouraged, but also to work on decision making elements of the game in the W, as well asserting himself even more physically.

Which is what I'm 99.9% sure will happen. He might get the 9 games, I mean...he's not really a liability until he does something like that, but in the end, I think we can all agree that he needs more development time, just like Lehner, Wiercioch, Gryba, Butler, Hoffman et. all. It'll end up making him that much better IMO.

The second Toronto goal was the big one for me though. Because he got caught watching the puck. It's such a huge no-no in the NHL for any player. Especially when you're not even remotely close to being involved in the play around the puck. The penalty kill is set play situation. It's like taking it straight out of a playbook. When you see your defensive partner circling behind the net, don't stand and watch what he or the player he's covering are doing. You gotta get at it and start watching for guys coming at the net. He should know better. It's a basic simple hockey play. Beauchemin isn't going to shoot it through the back of the net.

I was so angry about that play. Because you had to see Michalek come out of view to try to cut off the play, instead of this 6'5" giant with the wingspan of a pterodactyl reacting. Disappointing. I don't know if he's just mentally not ready or if he just needs to adjust to NHL game style and speed.

But when you're making mistakes as elementary as that, you're gonna have a tough time landing a full time job with the team.

I think it's definitely the speed that is effecting him, he still needs some time to adjust. And Spez, I realize he needs a good poke check, he just needs to be better at picking his spots, shouldn't be fishing with one hand on your stick along the boards, use your body buddy.

I agree with both of you.

The PK is a set play, don't mess with it. Clouston has it as a square that when one component moves, the other players follow him to complete the square again. With Cowen on that play, he's moving left, right, center and the box broke down because of it. That right there is probably enough for Clouston to tell him to take a year to refine the simple aspects of decision making and quick decisions.

And yes, he needs to pick his spots better when he goes for the poke - my only disagreement on that was that yes please, use the reach, but make sure you get it lodged to a Sen - otherwise...well he's out of position again.

Good points by both of you, I like that on this forum for sure. Always good conversations.

mickbud wrote:
I think it's definitely the speed that is effecting him, he still needs some time to adjust. And Spez, I realize he needs a good poke check, he just needs to be better at picking his spots, shouldn't be fishing with one hand on your stick along the boards, use your body buddy.

See, I disagree. He's making mental mistakes that shouldn't be made. Clearing the puck off glass is an instinctual reaction in that situation. And puck-watching is another mental mistake. I don't think either have anything to do with adjusting to NHL speed. I'm not saying the Leafs would for sure, 100%, not have scored on those plays. But at the very least, if he clears the puck off glass on the first goal, then that play doesn't develop. And it's hard to say either way what would happen next. But we know for sure, in that instance, that specific play wouldn't have resulted in a goal.

On the second goal, who knows. It's tough to say either way. Although if he's in better position. Or if he picks up Kadri cutting through the circles to the net maybe he gets there in time to block/deflect a shot. Maybe it closes off the passing lane. Maybe Kadri gets to it either way and makes a great move on him. I don't know. But he never gave himself the chance to make a play. He essentially never got involved in the play until it was far, far, far too late.

PKC wrote:

mickbud wrote:
I think it's definitely the speed that is effecting him, he still needs some time to adjust. And Spez, I realize he needs a good poke check, he just needs to be better at picking his spots, shouldn't be fishing with one hand on your stick along the boards, use your body buddy.

See, I disagree. He's making mental mistakes that shouldn't be made. Clearing the puck off glass is an instinctual reaction in that situation. And puck-watching is another mental mistake. I don't think either have anything to do with adjusting to NHL speed. I'm not saying the Leafs would for sure, 100%, not have scored on those plays. But at the very least, if he clears the puck off glass on the first goal, then that play doesn't develop. And it's hard to say either way what would happen next. But we know for sure, in that instance, that specific play wouldn't have resulted in a goal.

On the second goal, who knows. It's tough to say either way. Although if he's in better position. Or if he picks up Kadri cutting through the circles to the net maybe he gets there in time to block/deflect a shot. Maybe it closes off the passing lane. Maybe Kadri gets to it either way and makes a great move on him. I don't know. But he never gave himself the chance to make a play. He essentially never got involved in the play until it was far, far, far too late.

Sorry, I was sort of using your statement about speed to defend my statement about poke checks. I agree, that is definitely a mental error, but it sort of involves adjusting to the speed, he's trying to think quicker because he knows someone is going to be right on his tail if he doesn't move that puck quickly...when he begins to realize he doesn't have to be jumpy, that's when he'll start making those better decisions.

Puck watchin is a mental mistake, no question, but it's made by a lot of younger players, definitely not a reason to worry about the kid though.

I think they'll see how he bounces back from this. If he's consistently messing up then yeah he'll go back to Spokane. I didn't get the impression he was making rookie mistakes every game he was in so far.

Safe to say they expect some mistakes from the guy, Karlsson made mistakes last year and will this year as well.

Interesting, didn't realize he was that bad yesterday. Just saw the highlights and that was pretty bad on the first two goals. Like I said, I do think he needs time in the juniors, but I think the sens brass, even after a game like that, will still give him a few games. Perhaps it won't be all 9 games.

EDIT: And foligno missed a wide open net!!! First a post and then that

Michallica wrote:Interesting, didn't realize he was that bad yesterday. Just saw the highlights and that was pretty bad on the first two goals. Like I said, I do think he needs time in the juniors, but I think the sens brass, even after a game like that, will still give him a few games. Perhaps it won't be all 9 games.

If Cowen's problem is adapting to the speed of the NHL game how is he going to learn that in the WHL ?

If he's a liability on the ice and will cost us games then yes send him back, if this game destroyed his confidence send him back as well. But if he shows good progress in adapting ... I don't know. How high is the bar set for him out of training camp ?

I don't think the Sens have started work on systems yet either so I'm not sure if Clouston can rate Cowen's "coachability" either.