OFFSEASON TALK: Forwards!

SeawaySensFan wrote:We're spending 6 million on our 4th line?

I can't remember Neil's cap-hit.

Ruutu's at 1.7 and Kelly's at 2.2, right? So if Neil's cap-hit is around 2.1 (and I think it is) then we'd be at $6 million for the fourth line.

Which, incidentally, is great in the community.

PKC wrote:How does the talk in every thread always degenerate into a trade Spezza slapfest?

Both sides argue like their reasoning is the ultimate, incontestable truth. The reality is, neither side is right as a trade involving Spezza is less than ideal in either scenario.

To be fair, this is the thread for it. I'd be annoyed if it was in the Sharks vs. Hawks thread or something, but Spezza's future, given his NTC is upcoming, is definitely a principal topic amongst the Sens' forward situation.

SeawaySensFan wrote:We're spending 6 million on our 4th line?

3rd line

Kovalfie wrote:I'm pushing Spezza and Foligno for Brassard, Filatov, and Columbus' first. Just about anything else to me is a waste unless it involves legit player coming back (Iginla, Richards, etc).

OK, but:

A) How does Columbus afford Spezza?

B) When was the last time a star was traded for that kind of return, especially with almost no salary coming back?

C) What does our centre situation look like next season? Don't say Brassard would play on line 1, because if he's capable of being a #1C then there's no reason for Columbus to move him, and Filatov, and the fourth over-all pick.

D) Who do you take at fourth over-all? Another defenceman?

E) Iginla, really? Is he going to play with Jesse Winchester?

DirtyDave wrote:

SeawaySensFan wrote:We're spending 6 million on our 4th line?

3rd line

Ah yes! Yes.

rooneypoo wrote:

Cap'n Clutch wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

Cap'n Clutch wrote:I kinda hope he is traded. The Spezza discussions are getting very tiresome.

It's not the Spezza discussion that's tiresome. It's the sheer number of defenders he has, and the belligerence / myopia / blindness with which they often defend him and/or respond to those who want to see him moved.

Anyone who doesn't see that we have a serious, tough decision to make with Spezza in the next 6 weeks, and that Spezza's play and overall development have been problematic to say the least, needs to have his head examined.

It's hearing both sides of this story over and over and over again that's tiresome. You yourself must be tired of making the same point over and over again no?

It's the biggest decision that this franchise will have to make sense Chara/Redden, if not bigger. It has to be talked about.

I find it maddening that we have to keep invalidating the same points, dressed up in different clothes, and fighting through a sea of excuses and "what ifs" and "how can we survive without Spezza"s.

But the bottom line is, what's best for this team. I fight tooth and nail for a Spezza trade because I don't think this team can get serious about winning until that trade happens.

7 freaking years. Spezza has had all the time and opportunity that a guy could ask for to become the star he was always supposed to be. It hasn't happened. We have to move on. The point is not that we'll win immediately with Spezza gone, but that we'll NEVER win with him here. Let's work towards a solution instead of re-living the same story season in and season out.

Just don't paint the picture that he's been, over those 7 years, what he's been over the last 2 or 3.

At least the sens have a great owner and are financially stable.

rooneypoo wrote:

Urkie wrote:

stempniaksen wrote:

N4L wrote:In all seriousness though, how can it most conversations about the future of the team not come down to Spezza, especially right now and especially when talking about the forwards?

Of course it comes down to Spezza, and only Spezza.

Say what you want about the potential of Regin, Foligno, Petersson, Hoffman, ect but none of these guys bring to the table what Spezza does.

People complain that we will be 'stuck' with Spezza after his NTC goes into affect, but really we're stuck with him now. Because of our severe lack of offensive prospects Spezza is not a guy who is expendable. No matter his mistakes or his high salary, no one in our organization can replace what he brings.

That's why it comes down to Spezza, and why it's ridiculous to wanna trade him.

This is exactly how I feel. We don't have the depth to replace Spezza internally and we're not likely going to get back a guy who can replace him right away. And before you say Matt Cullen can replace him keep in mind his career best in points during the season is 49 points. Sound much different then Mike Fisher?

I get the Spezza arguments and I get the fact that he hasn't been as good as he should be but we're pretty much handcuffed. Murray doesn't have much of a choice and that's why I said I felt it would be a rebuild if Spezza was traded. He's the only one on the team who is capable of being a #1 center and he's one of 2 players on the team that can actually provide elite offense now. The other is 1 or 2 years from retiring.

If this were half as big an issue as people around here are making it out to be, OTT wouldn't score or win when Spezza is out of the line up. But history shows us again and again that that's not the case: OTT finds a way to come together, score enough goals to win games, play smarter hockey, and win games.

Seriously, please, will some stat-crazy guy on here add up the numbers for the team when Spezza's out? What are our win/loss, goals against, and goals for stats for those periods, for instance? Do the 2008-2010 seasons since, as N4L has pointed out repeatedly, the real problems around Spezza started emerging with the new deal he signed that year.

That's an impossible thing to gauge. Way too many other variables.

Strength of schedule, how the opposition is playing at the time, who else is injured, are players just buying into a system, would they do the same with other key members out. It's like saying all we need is for Phillips to score a goal and we'll be fine.

Cap'n Clutch wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

Cap'n Clutch wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

Cap'n Clutch wrote:I kinda hope he is traded. The Spezza discussions are getting very tiresome.

It's not the Spezza discussion that's tiresome. It's the sheer number of defenders he has, and the belligerence / myopia / blindness with which they often defend him and/or respond to those who want to see him moved.

Anyone who doesn't see that we have a serious, tough decision to make with Spezza in the next 6 weeks, and that Spezza's play and overall development have been problematic to say the least, needs to have his head examined.

It's hearing both sides of this story over and over and over again that's tiresome. You yourself must be tired of making the same point over and over again no?

It's the biggest decision that this franchise will have to make sense Chara/Redden, if not bigger. It has to be talked about.

I find it maddening that we have to keep invalidating the same points, dressed up in different clothes, and fighting through a sea of excuses and "what ifs" and "how can we survive without Spezza"s.

But the bottom line is, what's best for this team. I fight tooth and nail for a Spezza trade because I don't think this team can get serious about winning until that trade happens.

7 freaking years. Spezza has had all the time and opportunity that a guy could ask for to become the star he was always supposed to be. It hasn't happened. We have to move on. The point is not that we'll win immediately with Spezza gone, but that we'll NEVER win with him here. Let's work towards a solution instead of re-living the same story season in and season out.

Just don't paint the picture that he's been, over those 7 years, what he's been over the last 2 or 3.

I think all he was supposed to be is the 2nd best player out of the 2001 NHL Entry Draft. So far so good.

DirtyDave wrote:

SeawaySensFan wrote:We're spending 6 million on our 4th line?

3rd line

They were only the third line in the playoffs because Michalek and Kovalev were out with injury.

TeamRenzo wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

SpezDispenser wrote:

asq2 wrote:He doesn't think he sucks, he thinks he's not good enough - from a heart, intelligence and mentality perspective - to fulfill the contract and role that's expected of him and that we need from him. Big difference.

That said, the returns are pretty unrealistic. I mean, is the value so much different between Heatley and Spezza that Edmonton would tack on MPS to their original offer for Heatley? Especially since Penner's value quadrupled over the last season.

Oh, I know all about what he thinks, believe me. I've gone through the heart of darkness talking about Spezza on this site (usually with Neely), but hey, it's all good (kind of).

I do realize the ins and outs of trading Spezza, I just don't think it's the time personally.

It's literally now or never. July 1 is D-Day with respect to Spezza. We're 100% stuck with / committed to him if he's still on the team when that day arrives, and this conversation will end.

And then it will be up to him to prove us doubters wrong, and vindicate you cheerleaders.

This is one subject I really, really hope Spezza doubters are not in a position to say "told you so" for the next 5 years, because it will mean that our team is royally f@cked. And, regardless of our positions on Spezza, none of us wants to see our team in that position.

This is a big problem with the Spezza haters; you think the team will live and die with him.

Score as many goals as you like, if you can't keep the puck out of you net you Diddled!

I assume you meant "lovers" here, yes?

And this isn't tiresome. No not at at all.

Cap'n Clutch wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

Urkie wrote:

stempniaksen wrote:

N4L wrote:In all seriousness though, how can it most conversations about the future of the team not come down to Spezza, especially right now and especially when talking about the forwards?

Of course it comes down to Spezza, and only Spezza.

Say what you want about the potential of Regin, Foligno, Petersson, Hoffman, ect but none of these guys bring to the table what Spezza does.

People complain that we will be 'stuck' with Spezza after his NTC goes into affect, but really we're stuck with him now. Because of our severe lack of offensive prospects Spezza is not a guy who is expendable. No matter his mistakes or his high salary, no one in our organization can replace what he brings.

That's why it comes down to Spezza, and why it's ridiculous to wanna trade him.

This is exactly how I feel. We don't have the depth to replace Spezza internally and we're not likely going to get back a guy who can replace him right away. And before you say Matt Cullen can replace him keep in mind his career best in points during the season is 49 points. Sound much different then Mike Fisher?

I get the Spezza arguments and I get the fact that he hasn't been as good as he should be but we're pretty much handcuffed. Murray doesn't have much of a choice and that's why I said I felt it would be a rebuild if Spezza was traded. He's the only one on the team who is capable of being a #1 center and he's one of 2 players on the team that can actually provide elite offense now. The other is 1 or 2 years from retiring.

If this were half as big an issue as people around here are making it out to be, OTT wouldn't score or win when Spezza is out of the line up. But history shows us again and again that that's not the case: OTT finds a way to come together, score enough goals to win games, play smarter hockey, and win games.

Seriously, please, will some stat-crazy guy on here add up the numbers for the team when Spezza's out? What are our win/loss, goals against, and goals for stats for those periods, for instance? Do the 2008-2010 seasons since, as N4L has pointed out repeatedly, the real problems around Spezza started emerging with the new deal he signed that year.

That's an impossible thing to gauge. Way too many other variables.

Strength of schedule, how the opposition is playing at the time, who else is injured, are players just buying into a system, would they do the same with other key members out. It's like saying all we need is for Phillips to score a goal and we'll be fine.

You mean, if I go do all the work and dig up the numbers, and the numbers show conclusively that OTT does both score and win without Spezza in the line up, that information won't mean anything to you or anyone around here?

If so, that's seriously Diddled.

Cap'n Clutch wrote:And this isn't tiresome. No not at at all.

People pretending there isn't a problem to be addressed isn't tiresome at all either. Everything is A-Ok in Sens land!

rooneypoo wrote:

Cap'n Clutch wrote:And this isn't tiresome. No not at at all.

People pretending there isn't a problem to be addressed isn't tiresome at all either. Everything is A-Ok in Sens land!

My sources tell me it's the 6 million dollar 4th line.

rooneypoo wrote:

Cap'n Clutch wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

Urkie wrote:

stempniaksen wrote:

N4L wrote:In all seriousness though, how can it most conversations about the future of the team not come down to Spezza, especially right now and especially when talking about the forwards?

Of course it comes down to Spezza, and only Spezza.

Say what you want about the potential of Regin, Foligno, Petersson, Hoffman, ect but none of these guys bring to the table what Spezza does.

People complain that we will be 'stuck' with Spezza after his NTC goes into affect, but really we're stuck with him now. Because of our severe lack of offensive prospects Spezza is not a guy who is expendable. No matter his mistakes or his high salary, no one in our organization can replace what he brings.

That's why it comes down to Spezza, and why it's ridiculous to wanna trade him.

This is exactly how I feel. We don't have the depth to replace Spezza internally and we're not likely going to get back a guy who can replace him right away. And before you say Matt Cullen can replace him keep in mind his career best in points during the season is 49 points. Sound much different then Mike Fisher?

I get the Spezza arguments and I get the fact that he hasn't been as good as he should be but we're pretty much handcuffed. Murray doesn't have much of a choice and that's why I said I felt it would be a rebuild if Spezza was traded. He's the only one on the team who is capable of being a #1 center and he's one of 2 players on the team that can actually provide elite offense now. The other is 1 or 2 years from retiring.

If this were half as big an issue as people around here are making it out to be, OTT wouldn't score or win when Spezza is out of the line up. But history shows us again and again that that's not the case: OTT finds a way to come together, score enough goals to win games, play smarter hockey, and win games.

Seriously, please, will some stat-crazy guy on here add up the numbers for the team when Spezza's out? What are our win/loss, goals against, and goals for stats for those periods, for instance? Do the 2008-2010 seasons since, as N4L has pointed out repeatedly, the real problems around Spezza started emerging with the new deal he signed that year.

That's an impossible thing to gauge. Way too many other variables.

Strength of schedule, how the opposition is playing at the time, who else is injured, are players just buying into a system, would they do the same with other key members out. It's like saying all we need is for Phillips to score a goal and we'll be fine.

You mean, if I go do all the work and dig up the numbers, and the numbers show conclusively that OTT does both score and win without Spezza in the line up, that information won't mean anything to you or anyone around here?

If so, that's seriously Diddled.

The Sens have a poor record with Neil out of the lineup. Do you think that means anything at all?

They had a terrible record with Kuba out of the lineup in 08-09 but this season they were actually better off with him out of the lineup.

We can point to games where Alfie was out and say our record was poor but Spezza was out for some of those games too. Let me guess it had zero to do with Spezza and everything to do with Alfie because...

The point is it's useless information. Like I said too many variables to make a valid point out of it.

Go ahead and dig it up though if you want. It would be interesting to know how the teams were playing at the time, who else was injured on the Sens and the opposition, if there were back to back games, if goalies were pulled, if they were road or home games how either the Sens or opposition were doing on the road or at home. If either were already on a losing streak and on and on and on and on.

Are you planning on digging all that up too? How about players playing hurt in there too.

Cap'n Clutch wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

Cap'n Clutch wrote:

rooneypoo wrote:

Urkie wrote:

stempniaksen wrote:

N4L wrote:In all seriousness though, how can it most conversations about the future of the team not come down to Spezza, especially right now and especially when talking about the forwards?

Of course it comes down to Spezza, and only Spezza.

Say what you want about the potential of Regin, Foligno, Petersson, Hoffman, ect but none of these guys bring to the table what Spezza does.

People complain that we will be 'stuck' with Spezza after his NTC goes into affect, but really we're stuck with him now. Because of our severe lack of offensive prospects Spezza is not a guy who is expendable. No matter his mistakes or his high salary, no one in our organization can replace what he brings.

That's why it comes down to Spezza, and why it's ridiculous to wanna trade him.

This is exactly how I feel. We don't have the depth to replace Spezza internally and we're not likely going to get back a guy who can replace him right away. And before you say Matt Cullen can replace him keep in mind his career best in points during the season is 49 points. Sound much different then Mike Fisher?

I get the Spezza arguments and I get the fact that he hasn't been as good as he should be but we're pretty much handcuffed. Murray doesn't have much of a choice and that's why I said I felt it would be a rebuild if Spezza was traded. He's the only one on the team who is capable of being a #1 center and he's one of 2 players on the team that can actually provide elite offense now. The other is 1 or 2 years from retiring.

If this were half as big an issue as people around here are making it out to be, OTT wouldn't score or win when Spezza is out of the line up. But history shows us again and again that that's not the case: OTT finds a way to come together, score enough goals to win games, play smarter hockey, and win games.

Seriously, please, will some stat-crazy guy on here add up the numbers for the team when Spezza's out? What are our win/loss, goals against, and goals for stats for those periods, for instance? Do the 2008-2010 seasons since, as N4L has pointed out repeatedly, the real problems around Spezza started emerging with the new deal he signed that year.

That's an impossible thing to gauge. Way too many other variables.

Strength of schedule, how the opposition is playing at the time, who else is injured, are players just buying into a system, would they do the same with other key members out. It's like saying all we need is for Phillips to score a goal and we'll be fine.

You mean, if I go do all the work and dig up the numbers, and the numbers show conclusively that OTT does both score and win without Spezza in the line up, that information won't mean anything to you or anyone around here?

If so, that's seriously Diddled.

The Sens have a poor record with Neil out of the lineup. Do you think that means anything at all?

They had a terrible record with Kuba out of the lineup in 08-09 but this season they were actually better off with him out of the lineup.

We can point to games where Alfie was out and say our record was poor but Spezza was out for some of those games too. Let me guess it had zero to do with Spezza and everything to do with Alfie because...

The point is it's useless information. Like I said too many variables to make a valid point out of it.

Go ahead and dig it up though if you want. It would be interesting to know how the teams were playing at the time, who else was injured on the Sens and the opposition, if there were back to back games, if goalies were pulled, if they were road or home games how either the Sens or opposition were doing on the road or at home. If either were already on a losing streak and on and on and on and on.

Are you planning on digging all that up too? How about players playing hurt in there too.

OMG, Neil is not comparable to Spezza for about 10 reasons: minutes played per game, kind of game played, offense expected, offensive opportunities (i.e., PP), linemates, etc., etc. etc. This point is either dishonest or ignorant.

On Kuba, well, he was great last year and pretty awful this year. That, and we brought in Sutton to replace him for those last 15-20 games. Plus, Karlsson stepped up to help replace his absence, too.

Anyway, I bet for sure our record without Alfie is, historically, atrocious across the board -- goals for, goals again, and win/loss -- but not so without Spezza. Alfie and now Spezza are our 2 top guns; they play the most minutes, play in almost all situations (Spezza's PK time is limited for sure, but he gets some), get the most PP opportunities, etc., so it's only natural to assume that our overall success should be tied to them. What does it say, however, when one guy's absence is insurmountable, and the other guy's absence barely even registers? That he's "integral" or that he's "complementary"?

I'm not going to go do all that work if no one is willing to see reason.

I'm very bored with the Spezza discussion.