Jonathan Cheechoo Depreciation Thread

N4L wrote:A lot of what you said is why I dont think Spezza fits in on a team like Ottawa. Hard forcheck, cycle, get to the net... Like it or not teams that have a center dishing out everywhere without the ability to cycle the puck dont win come playoff time for the most part. IE San Jose.

If you look at the teams who get to the finals, all of them can take part in the cycle, get in the dirty area's, score the flukey goals, so on.

And see, this is where I think there's an exception on every team. Boston had a team that SHOULD have competed for the Cup and their top center is Marc Savard - who just learned to play a complete game.

Getzlaf is the best player as an example for you, but what about little Andy Mac? He's not the grinding forechecker.

No, to me, there has to be a good balance between the complete star (Fisher, Alfie) and the slick player that's hard to contain (Spezza, Kovalev).

Not to rehash this again, but someone needs to explain to me why we didn't take Ehroff and Michalek. It was evident that SJ was gonna jettison both anyway.

Still don't 100% understand why we needed to take Cheechoo.

SpezDispenser wrote:

N4L wrote:A lot of what you said is why I dont think Spezza fits in on a team like Ottawa. Hard forcheck, cycle, get to the net... Like it or not teams that have a center dishing out everywhere without the ability to cycle the puck dont win come playoff time for the most part. IE San Jose.

If you look at the teams who get to the finals, all of them can take part in the cycle, get in the dirty area's, score the flukey goals, so on.

And see, this is where I think there's an exception on every team. Boston had a team that SHOULD have competed for the Cup and their top center is Marc Savard - who just learned to play a complete game.

Getzlaf is the best player as an example for you, but what about little Andy Mac? He's not the grinding forechecker.

No, to me, there has to be a good balance between the complete star (Fisher, Alfie) and the slick player that's hard to contain (Spezza, Kovalev).

Spezza isnt as good as Savard or McDonald, both those two are guys I would take ahead of Spezza. McDonald defently plays well on both sides of the puck though, very resposnsible and does get the dirty goals where he gets put on his Donkey. Savard has bought in to everything Boston is selling.

SpezDispenser wrote:Not to rehash this again, but someone needs to explain to me why we didn't take Ehroff and Michalek. It was evident that SJ was gonna jettison both anyway.

Still don't 100% understand why we needed to take Cheechoo.

AAAAAAND give up a draft pick!!!

Kind of pisses me off too. I'm thinking we wanted Michalek more than SJS wanted Heatley, ultimately.

N4L wrote:

MurderOnIce wrote:This thread was started about Cheechoo. He is a problem whether anyone likes it or not. If we could get someone to take him on waivers we would and do it before they sobered up!

Picking on Spezza is ridiculous in the context of this thread. If we put him on waivers there would be a lineup. He still has talent, he still is a top 10 center in this league. He is trying to change his game and he is struggling. He will come around.

Saying that Cheechoo would get goals playing more minutes is speculation at best. Perhaps he might because statistically there are more opportunities but I am not sure that our team would get better having him play more and his absolute top end is 20 goals, I am convinced. Even if you gave him 60 minutes a game. He is no longer a goal scorer in this league nor does he have any talent that is of any value.

How is Cheechoo a problem? Tell me what problems he is causing cap wise, on the ice, off the ice, or in the grand scheme of things in Ottawa in a long term sense?

He isnt signifigant enough at this point to be a problem.

I will tell you what problem he is...

Cap wise his $3 Mil could be used on what we really need, a guy who could run the PP consistently. A $3M fourth liner IS a cap problem.

On the ice he misses often. Like the wrap around in the first period last night which could have been game changing. He is not a goal scorer anymore he is the opposite.

Off the ice he is not getting sat ever. He is not producing while a guy like Donovan (before his injury) played his tail off and did produce but sat out. Other players see this and it affects the room. Additionally, like I said his lack of confidence will be poison for this club. Having a guy who just can't back to where he was leaves a cloud over the room.

Long term, for this year and potentially next, he is taking a roster spot from a player we are looking to develope. I personally would rather see Z. Smith up with the club or even Keller. These guys are guys who will be here in 2 or 3 years and have little to learn in the AHL.

So those are the problems I see with Cheechoo.

When you get the best player in a deal and a salary like Michalek has, you wont the trade. The only thing left to see is what happens to that 2nd round pick.

SeawaySensFan wrote:AAAAAAND give up a draft pick!!!

Kind of pisses me off too. I'm thinking we wanted Michalek more than SJS wanted Heatley, ultimately.

You know, you might be right SSF. Our scouts are damn good for identifying talent (Campoli is a mulligan) and going after it.

Still...SJ gave up Ehrhoff for nothing. He would have been nice to snag.

SpezDispenser wrote:Not to rehash this again, but someone needs to explain to me why we didn't take Ehroff and Michalek. It was evident that SJ was gonna jettison both anyway.

Still don't 100% understand why we needed to take Cheechoo.

I was under the impression it was either Erhoff + Cheechoo or (later) Michalek + Cheechoo.

I don't think the first trade is a good one and supposedly Doug Wilson only caved in on Michalek at the end. They really wanted to keep him in SJ (and we now know why).

SJS wanted Heatley badly, although they only became serious once Melnyk forked over the $4M.

SpezDispenser wrote:

SeawaySensFan wrote:AAAAAAND give up a draft pick!!!

Kind of pisses me off too. I'm thinking we wanted Michalek more than SJS wanted Heatley, ultimately.

You know, you might be right SSF. Our scouts are damn good for identifying talent (Campoli is a mulligan) and going after it.

Still...SJ gave up Ehrhoff for nothing. He would have been nice to snag.

Campoli had me fooled too. I still think he might turn out, in fact. But I wouldn't regret seeing him develop elsewhere for an immediate payoff.

MurderOnIce wrote:

N4L wrote:

MurderOnIce wrote:This thread was started about Cheechoo. He is a problem whether anyone likes it or not. If we could get someone to take him on waivers we would and do it before they sobered up!

Picking on Spezza is ridiculous in the context of this thread. If we put him on waivers there would be a lineup. He still has talent, he still is a top 10 center in this league. He is trying to change his game and he is struggling. He will come around.

Saying that Cheechoo would get goals playing more minutes is speculation at best. Perhaps he might because statistically there are more opportunities but I am not sure that our team would get better having him play more and his absolute top end is 20 goals, I am convinced. Even if you gave him 60 minutes a game. He is no longer a goal scorer in this league nor does he have any talent that is of any value.

How is Cheechoo a problem? Tell me what problems he is causing cap wise, on the ice, off the ice, or in the grand scheme of things in Ottawa in a long term sense?

He isnt signifigant enough at this point to be a problem.

I will tell you what problem he is...

Cap wise his $3 Mil could be used on what we really need, a guy who could run the PP consistently. A $3M fourth liner IS a cap problem.

On the ice he misses often. Like the wrap around in the first period last night which could have been game changing. He is not a goal scorer anymore he is a the opposite.

Off the ice he is not getting sat ever. He is not producing while a guy like Donovan (before his injury) played his tail off and did produce but sat out. Other players see this and it affects the room. Additionally, like I said his lack of confidence will be poison for this club. Having a guy who just can't back to where he was leaves a cloud over the room.

Long term, for this year and potentially next, he is taking a roster spot from a player we are looking to develope. I personally would rather see Z. Smith up with the club or even Keller. These guys are guys who will be here in 2 or 3 years and have little to learn in the AHL.

So those are the problems I see with Cheechoo.

He's doing what is asked of him, working hard, can score goals, and for the most part, he is getting chances in close.

Zack Smith had every chance to make the team out of camp, he wasnt and isnt ready. Keller is getting into the line up right now and that's good to see, still wouldnt take him out of the lineup over Cheechoo, no reason to.

Cheechoo is fine, he is supposed to do what the coaches ask him to do, that's what he's doing.

Hoags wrote:I was under the impression it was either Erhoff + Cheechoo or (later) Michalek + Cheechoo.

I don't think the first trade is a good one and supposedly Doug Wilson only caved in on Michalek at the end. They really wanted to keep him in SJ (and we now know why).

SJS wanted Heatley badly, although they only became serious once Melnyk forked over the $4M.

Maybe it was Erhoff and Cheechoo. I remember reading that at one point and laughing.

SpezDispenser wrote:
I think we play a heavy forecheck now,
especially with Fisher, Foligno, Alfie, Michalek, then the entire 3rd,
4th lines. Much more of a cycle game as well when we do forecheck the
puck off an opposition's stick.

The Fisher, Kovalev, Foligno
line was having all kinds of fun forechecking until Fisher got hurt and
subsequently the lines got all moved around and now Fisher's cooling
off. But I still think this is a heavy forechecking team.

It might just be me but we seemed to be more aggressive and tenacious last season under CC.

I can recall a few instances of us heaving cycling the pack in the offensive zone for any amount of time and make the opposing team sweat and pray for a line change. I haven't seen the team step and take control of a game very much and we certainly have the talent to do so.

Had it been Erhoff, Michalek and a 2nd then I would have been quite happy. As it is I figured Cheechoo was the anchor and if we got anything out of him it would be gravy.

MurderOnIce wrote:
I will tell you what problem he is...

Cap wise his $3 Mil could be used on what we really need, a guy who could run the PP consistently. A $3M fourth liner IS a cap problem.

On the ice he misses often. Like the wrap around in the first period last night which could have been game changing. He is not a goal scorer anymore he is the opposite.

Off the ice he is not getting sat ever. He is not producing while a guy like Donovan (before his injury) played his tail off and did produce but sat out. Other players see this and it affects the room. Additionally, like I said his lack of confidence will be poison for this club. Having a guy who just can't back to where he was leaves a cloud over the room.

Long term, for this year and potentially next, he is taking a roster spot from a player we are looking to develope. I personally would rather see Z. Smith up with the club or even Keller. These guys are guys who will be here in 2 or 3 years and have little to learn in the AHL.

So those are the problems I see with Cheechoo.

That's an excellent summary except for one thing.

What exactly will benching Cheechoo accomplish ? (besides freeing a spot).

It won't make him work harder, he already works harder than a lot of players.

It won't make him skate faster, he skates as he's fast as he is able to (which isn't fast obviously).

It won't make him shoot more, he's already 5th in SOG on the team.

You bench unmotivated players who are not trying out there, like Shannon and Regin have done. Cheechoo is doing everything but the puck isn't going in, now we see Clouston's dilemma.

I have to agree to disagree here. My opinion is that he is not fine. He is working hard, great I couldn't give a steaming pile of crap about trying hard.

He is a $3M - fourth liner. That is unacceptable on any level. We can all pile on about other things but it is undeniable that he is playing fourth line minutes and it is undeniable that he makes $3M/year. End of story.

Here is my take:

Cheechoo has not had significant improvement since the first game of the year. He is what he is and I'm fine with that. As Neely says, he won't be around long anyways.

This Senators team will have injuries and young guys will get their chances. I would like to see Cheechoo get some powerplay time. He is a defensive liability at times (untimely turnovers) and it might get exploited against teams top lines. Keep him on line 3 or 4 unless one of our top 6 get injured.

I don't think we need to get rid of him or anything. This team is still getting used to eachother and he should be a part of that. I don't think it's time to panic.

Spezza has been far better in the defensive zone than I have ever seen, and far WORSE in the attacking end. One knock on him that I have to agree with, his game is affected by his mood to a greater degree than some of the other Senators. After scoring a goal against Columbus, he looked like he was hungry for the puck and started taking smarter shots, making better plays etc.

He has concerning lapses far too often and is looking nothing like a $7mil player now. He isn't strong enough on the puck right now to make things happen the way Michalek or Alfie can.

If this keeps up, try Fisher on line 1. Let Spezza be a $7mil second line centre for a bit. Other than that there's not much you can do but be patient. Again, we're only 25 games in. The story for these two guys may have changed by the end of season. Even if it hasn't, Spezza has an NTC so patience is the only choice.

beerandsens wrote:If this keeps up, try Fisher on line 1. Let Spezza be a $7mil second line centre for a bit. Other than that there's not much you can do but be patient. Again, we're only 25 games in. The story for these two guys may have changed by the end of season. Even if it hasn't, Spezza has an NTC so patience is the only choice.

Spezza on line two makes so much sense, it's annoying that he isn't playing there.

Michalek-Fisher-Alfredsson
Shannon-Spezza-Kovalev

That top-6 works in so many ways. All this talk about Spezza and Kovalev being too similar to play together is nonsense. They would have instant chemistry because they would read each other so well. Even in the games they were together (early in the season) they put up points, were dangerous, and connected on plays that no other player on the roster (except for Alfie, maybe Michalek) could have read...

Then, on line 1, you've Alfie and Fisher, who are always good together, Michalek and Alfredsson, who already play together and have put up almost all of our points in the past two games, and Michalek and Fisher, who play such a complimentary style to one another that its crazy that they aren't already together.

It's actually pretty annoying that those aren't the lines...

beerandsens wrote:Here is my take:

Cheechoo has not had significant improvement since the first game of the year. He is what he is and I'm fine with that. As Neely says, he won't be around long anyways.

This Senators team will have injuries and young guys will get their chances. I would like to see Cheechoo get some powerplay time. He is a defensive liability at times (untimely turnovers) and it might get exploited against teams top lines. Keep him on line 3 or 4 unless one of our top 6 get injured.

I don't think we need to get rid of him or anything. This team is still getting used to eachother and he should be a part of that. I don't think it's time to panic.

Spezza has been far better in the defensive zone than I have ever seen, and far WORSE in the attacking end. One knock on him that I have to agree with, his game is affected by his mood to a greater degree than some of the other Senators. After scoring a goal against Columbus, he looked like he was hungry for the puck and started taking smarter shots, making better plays etc.

He has concerning lapses far too often and is looking nothing like a $7mil player now. He isn't strong enough on the puck right now to make things happen the way Michalek or Alfie can.

If this keeps up, try Fisher on line 1. Let Spezza be a $7mil second line centre for a bit. Other than that there's not much you can do but be patient. Again, we're only 25 games in. The story for these two guys may have changed by the end of season. Even if it hasn't, Spezza has an NTC so patience is the only choice.

Not until July, 2010.