Senators trying to trade Jason Smith?

Which leads me right back to Mike Fisher. You need to pick it up - NOW. 2nd line center my arse.

504Heater wrote:

Neely4Life wrote:

504Heater wrote:

Neely4Life wrote:Spezza should be good enough at 7 million a year to improve anyone in the leagues play. It doesnt matter if its "crap" or not. Again, Spezza is paid to make others better, same with Heatley.

Not gonna happen. Crosby whined all year for the Pens to get him a winger. They finally did at the deadline in Kunitz (and Guerin it turned out) and you see where it lead them.

Crosby still played hard when he had nobodys to play with, but he was way less effective.

Less effective, not useless.

He was pretty useless some nights. Malkin had to be shifted to his wing in order for him to do anything. Then they tried Staal and that was a bust. So they'd go back to Talbot and Sykora. Then back to Malkin...

Still, this is the best hockey player in the world - and he struggled big time. Their PP was awesome, but the 5 on 5 play was average at best. Luckily for the Pens the Malkin/Sykora line took over and it overshadowed it. There's a reason Malkin's up for the Hart this year.

Crosby needed ONE winger, not 2 all world players beside him. BIG difference. Give Crosby, Heatley alone, lets see what would happen. I would be willing to bet he doesnt need Alfi there.

Neely4Life wrote:
They shouldnt need a top 3 forward there, not even top 6... If you need more than 18-20 million on a line, so 14.5 of it can produce at a realistic rate, then there are problems.

Every top line center has 2 great wingers. And if they don't, you can bet your life they're trying to get them.

504Heater wrote:Which leads me right back to Mike Fisher. You need to pick it up - NOW. 2nd line center my arse.

Mike Fisher at 4.2 mil >>>>> Cheechoo at 3 mil

Neely4Life wrote:
Crosby needed ONE winger, not 2 all world players beside him. BIG difference. Give Crosby, Heatley alone, lets see what would happen. I would be willing to bet he doesnt need Alfi there.

Crosby needed a finisher. He got 2.

Neely4Life wrote:

504Heater wrote:Which leads me right back to Mike Fisher. You need to pick it up - NOW. 2nd line center my arse.

Mike Fisher at 4.2 mil >>>>> Cheechoo at 3 mil

But this isn't about Cheechoo right now, this is about Spezza and Heatley - again.

504Heater wrote:

Neely4Life wrote:
They shouldnt need a top 3 forward there, not even top 6... If you need more than 18-20 million on a line, so 14.5 of it can produce at a realistic rate, then there are problems.

Every top line center has 2 great wingers. And if they don't, you can bet your life they're trying to get them.

2 GREAT wingers? Reaaaaaaally? Penner? (not even top 9 guy at this point) Cheechoo (same deal). Dont give me the BS you need 3 all stars on a line for one guy to be effective. Thats weak, weak, weak.

504Heater wrote:

Neely4Life wrote:
Crosby needed ONE winger, not 2 all world players beside him. BIG difference. Give Crosby, Heatley alone, lets see what would happen. I would be willing to bet he doesnt need Alfi there.

Crosby needed a finisher. He got 2.

Kunitz a finisher? No shot. He is a nice complimentry player that has the ability to play with Crosby. A finisher, a snipper, an elite winger? No shot.

504Heater wrote:

Neely4Life wrote:

504Heater wrote:Which leads me right back to Mike Fisher. You need to pick it up - NOW. 2nd line center my arse.

Mike Fisher at 4.2 mil >>>>> Cheechoo at 3 mil

But this isn't about Cheechoo right now, this is about Spezza and Heatley - again.

Im putting things in persepctive. You cant say you would take Cheechoo at 3 mil, then a page later whine about Fisher and what he brings.

Neely4Life wrote:
2 GREAT wingers? Reaaaaaaally? Penner? (not even top 9 guy at this point) Cheechoo (same deal). Dont give me the BS you need 3 all stars on a line for one guy to be effective. Thats weak, weak, weak.

Guerin you mean? He fits the bill, he's got a ton of NHL goals to his credit and the experience to finish.

Spezza and Heatley accounted for what % of the Sens scoring? 50? They need support. It's sooo obvious.

Neely4Life wrote:
Im putting things in persepctive. You cant say you would take Cheechoo at 3 mil, then a page later whine about Fisher and what he brings.

I'm not whining, I'm saying that if Fisher doesn't get moving, things won't work for us. Period. But he looks like he's getting going, so cross the fingers.

504Heater wrote:

cash wrote:
Havlat, Hossa, Stillman, Vermette, Shannon, Comrie, Schaeffer, Neil, Kelly, Ruutu, Donovan, Winchester, Bochenski... Spezza has failed to make any of them better.

You put Crosby with Talbot and Armstrong and he still puts up 100 points....

It's not really a strong argument either way... The simple fact is that when you take Alfredsson off that line, they're useless.

Also, you can't really justify saying Cheechoo has a "scoring touch you can't teach" Imo

Havlat, Hossa? Hossa was here before Spezza started his PPG pace, Havlat and Spezza never played together. The only time I think I ever saw Stillman on the same ice as Spezza was the PP. Shannon was good with Spezza and Heatley - for the ONE shift he played there. Vermette is a center - anywhere else and he's useless. Plus, he choked when Hartsburg put him up there. Absolutely sucked.

Comrie never played with Spezza. Nor did Shaeffer, Neil sucks offensively either way. Donovan? Ruutu? Seriously?

I think this proves the point perfectly. When you try to put Dung up there with Spezza and Heatley - you can't force them to score. They'll miss like you've never seen - or just plain suck, but the point of this is, we haven't seen what can happen when you put someone of high quality with Spezza and Heatley.

Actually all of them have played with Spezza. Obviously Hossa, Havlat, and Schaefer aren't the best examples because they played with him pre-lockout, but they still played with him.
Comrie definitely played many a shift next to them and Stillman did spend some 5-on-5 time with them.

You're right in saying that most of the players who got a chance with them in recent times (post-creation of the cash line) weren't exactly elite wingers, but all you have to do is look at how little they accomplished in 5-on-5 situations at the WC with Roy and Doan to see how dependent they are on having Alfredsson on their wing.

504Heater wrote:

Neely4Life wrote:
2 GREAT wingers? Reaaaaaaally? Penner? (not even top 9 guy at this point) Cheechoo (same deal). Dont give me the BS you need 3 all stars on a line for one guy to be effective. Thats weak, weak, weak.

Guerin you mean? He fits the bill, he's got a ton of NHL goals to his credit and the experience to finish.

Spezza and Heatley accounted for what % of the Sens scoring? 50? They need support. It's sooo obvious.

They only produce at a clip that is worth thier money when Alfi is there, thats it. You dont need 3 all stars on a line for it to be effective, or even an elite line.

Neely4Life wrote:
They only produce at a clip that is worth thier money when Alfi is there, thats it. You dont need 3 all stars on a line for it to be effective, or even an elite line.

Here, this might be a better way of looking at it:

Mike Fisher had 32 points last year. Foligno and Shannon both started to produce when Clouston came in. Within that time frame we were 19-10-3 or whatever it was. Why? Because behind Jason Spezza was someone who could put the puck in when it mattered. The FFS line was supporting the CASH line and vice-versa. Money or no money, the top line will be shut down and made to look foolish if that's the defence's key every night. When they're made to play against 2 legitimate lines, good things start to happen, the ice opens up - and the team is successful.

I'm not going to stand here and say that Spezza and Heatley had good years - they were both terrible. But they had zero support behind them. If there's a one line team in the NHL that is successful, I'd love to know who and how. Unless you've got an all-world goaltender and D, you're dead in the water.

All you need to look at are guys like Cheechoo, Penner, Todd White (tell me he is a top 6 guy), Sedagutchi (sp?) so many wingers that are not of the elite, all-star or even top 6 guys who have all been made better by the players they play with.

People would have been all over Penner 3 years ago, now they wouldnt come within a mile of him. Why, because he was made better then he was. You dont need Alfi beside 14.5 million dollars of tallent.

504Heater wrote:

Neely4Life wrote:
They only produce at a clip that is worth thier money when Alfi is there, thats it. You dont need 3 all stars on a line for it to be effective, or even an elite line.

Here, this might be a better way of looking at it:

Mike Fisher had 32 points last year. Foligno and Shannon both started to produce when Clouston came in. Within that time frame we were 19-10-3 or whatever it was. Why? Because behind Jason Spezza was someone who could put the puck in when it mattered. The FFS line was supporting the CASH line and vice-versa. Money or no money, the top line will be shut down and made to look foolish if that's the defence's key every night. When they're made to play against 2 legitimate lines, good things start to happen, the ice opens up - and the team is successful.

I'm not going to stand here and say that Spezza and Heatley had good years - they were both terrible. But they had zero support behind them. If there's a one line team in the NHL that is successful, I'd love to know who and how. Unless you've got an all-world goaltender and D, you're dead in the water.

If they dont score, they are a liability, thats the problem.

Neely4Life wrote:All you need to look at are guys like Cheechoo, Penner, Todd White (tell me he is a top 6 guy), Sedagutchi (sp?) so many wingers that are not of the elite, all-star or even top 6 guys who have all been made better by the players they play with.

People would have been all over Penner 3 years ago, now they wouldnt come within a mile of him. Why, because he was made better then he was. You dont need Alfi beside 14.5 million dollars of tallent.

Fine, so you can finally fill out the top 6 by putting Alfie with Fisher. Who moves up? Shannon or Foligno? I'm good either way. Foligno and Spezza are dynamite on the PP together, let's give them a shot. Shannon, Spezza and Heatley would be awesome.

We can kill 2 birds with one stone here.

Neely4Life wrote:All you need to look at are guys like Cheechoo, Penner, Todd White (tell me he is a top 6 guy), Sedagutchi (sp?) so many wingers that are not of the elite, all-star or even top 6 guys who have all been made better by the players they play with.

People would have been all over Penner 3 years ago, now they wouldnt come within a mile of him. Why, because he was made better then he was. You dont need Alfi beside 14.5 million dollars of tallent.

Funny story about Todd White: I came across a trade suggestion today that had us trading Spezza, Zubov, and a 2nd round pick to the Thrashers for White and their 1st
Their reasoning? Spezza had 73 points this year and so did White.
:^^^^: