Vrbata and Gratton waived!

OK - so let me get this straight:

If he is waived to go home, and, for example, Ottawa puts in a claim, but he goes home anyhow, then Ottawa would have to bring him up on re-entry to play him. But, if he only comes back next season, then no re-entry, right?

Better still, tell TB to bring him back on re-entry, in return for a 2011 final round pick (or whatever, just an example), we take him, and are on the hook for half if he comes back, with TB on the hook for the other half.

Either way, if he doesn't make the team out of camp next pre-season, he remains buried in Bingo, no? Seems like a reasonable gamble.

Allow me to clarify, re: waivers vs. re-entry waivers.

When you put a player on waivers, other teams have 24 hours to put in a claim. A player who is claimed becomes the property of the claiming team, and the team who waived him is entirely done with him.

A player who goes unclaimed can, if the organization desires, remain with the team (with his salary staying on the books and counting against the caps), OR be assigned to the minor-league affiliate (with his salary staying on the books but not counting against the cap), OR (and this is a new option, really) he can head to the KHL, with either the KHL team taking on his salary or him being suspended (in either case, the NHL team maintains his rights for the life of the contract but doesn't pay him or have his salary count against the cap).

Often times -- and this is something that many people don't seem to understand -- players who are waived are in fact retained with the NHL club (Khabibulin being a good instance) and, from the outside, it looks like nothing has really happened. Life continues on as usual for the player and the team. The organization has tried to give away a player, but no one is interested in picking him up. After this point, the organization has, I believe, 9 games or 28 days (whichever comes first) to demote him, if that's what it wants to do. If the player remains with the team after that time has elapsed, then the waiver window has closed. If the team wanted to demote him to the minors after that time, it would have to pass him through waivers again.

Re-entry waivers are an entirely different beast, and the big mistake people have been making around here is in thinking that, once you are waived, you have to pass through re-entry waivers to play again. This is simply not the case, and the reality is much more complicated. A player who is waived can be, as I said, assigned to the minor-league affiliate. This is the crucial factor: the moment an organization assigns a player to the minors is the moment when re-entry waivers come into play. If, after that assignment, the organization wants to recall that player from the minors, it has to pass him through re-entry waivers -- at which point, as we all know, he can be claimed by other teams at half price, with the original organization being left on the hook for the other half of the player's salary.

We need a section of this site dedicated to stuff cap-, CBA-, and rule-related. This is, like, the 4th time I've found myself explaining this point.

rooneypoo wrote:Allow me to clarify, re: waivers vs. re-entry waivers.

When you put a player on waivers, other teams have 24 hours to put in a claim. A player who is claimed becomes the property of the claiming team, and the team who waived him is entirely done with him.

A player who goes unclaimed can, if the organization desires, remain with the team (with his salary staying on the books and counting against the caps), OR be assigned to the minor-league affiliate (with his salary staying on the books but not counting against the cap), OR (and this is a new option, really) he can head to the KHL, with either the KHL team taking on his salary or him being suspended (in either case, the NHL team maintains his rights for the life of the contract but doesn't pay him or have his salary count against the cap).

Often times -- and this is something that many people don't seem to understand -- players who are waived are in fact retained with the NHL club (Khabibulin being a good instance) and, from the outside, it looks like nothing has really happened. Life continues on as usual for the player and the team. The organization has tried to give away a player, but no one is interested in picking him up. After this point, the organization has, I believe, 9 games or 28 days (whichever comes first) to demote him, if that's what it wants to do. If the player remains with the team after that time has elapsed, then the waiver window has closed. If the team wanted to demote him to the minors after that time, it would have to pass him through waivers again.

Re-entry waivers are an entirely different beast, and the big mistake people have been making around here is in thinking that, once you are waived, you have to pass through re-entry waivers to play again. This is simply not the case, and the reality is much more complicated. A player who is waived can be, as I said, assigned to the minor-league affiliate. This is the crucial factor: the moment an organization assigns a player to the minors is the moment when re-entry waivers come into play. If, after that assignment, the organization wants to recall that player from the minors, it has to pass him through re-entry waivers -- at which point, as we all know, he can be claimed by other teams at half price, with the original organization being left on the hook for the other half of the player's salary.

We need a section of this site dedicated to stuff cap-, CBA-, and rule-related. This is, like, the 4th time I've found myself explaining this point.

I nominate you as leader/guru of said section. :D

I'll 2nd that nomination. You're extremely well versed in that legalese and fine print stuff Rooney.

COLLAR UP wrote:

504Heater wrote:Wow, there's a guy I wouldn't ever touch with a 10 foot pole. His confidence is low, so he's going to go home to find it?

Never heard of anything of the sort.

seriously...

what if someone claims him of waivers though...then when he does return belongs to them??

might be worth a gamble as it costs nothing if he doesn't come back...and he has so much talent

It costs you your place in the Waiver order does it not? Not sure if that's even worth losing for a guy that clearly wants to go home or are you talking about Gratton.

I say pass on both of these guys.

Re: Rooneypoo's explanation

I appreciate you explaining this, although I wasn't unclear on it, I just didn't explain things right (I think - or maybe I'm more confused than I realize).

My point is that if Vrbata goes home, then it is equivalent to having been demoted to the minors - i.e. he is now subject to re-entry (whether claimed by Ottawa, or still the property of TB). As long as he is down/in the KHL/out of the NHL, his salary is irrelevant for cap purposes (although Melnyk would be on the hook for it if in the AHL). Furthermore, re-entry waivers don't apply at the opening of each season (or for playoffs, IIRC), thus giving another out.

Anyhow, it's irrelevant for him now, as the time is passed, but for someone else, may be worth thinking about.

Acrobat wrote:Re: Rooneypoo's explanation

I appreciate you explaining this, although I wasn't unclear on it, I just didn't explain things right (I think - or maybe I'm more confused than I realize).

My point is that if Vrbata goes home, then it is equivalent to having been demoted to the minors - i.e. he is now subject to re-entry (whether claimed by Ottawa, or still the property of TB). As long as he is down/in the KHL/out of the NHL, his salary is irrelevant for cap purposes (although Melnyk would be on the hook for it if in the AHL). Furthermore, re-entry waivers don't apply at the opening of each season (or for playoffs, IIRC), thus giving another out.

Anyhow, it's irrelevant for him now, as the time is passed, but for someone else, may be worth thinking about.

Yeah, I think you're right about that. If I'm reading the reports correctly, TB had to "assign" him to the KHL, which ought to act the same way as the minors -- which means that if TB were to recall him to the team this year, he'd have to pass through recall waivers, I believe.

But note that that's only for *this* year. Waivers only apply during the season, and for the duration of the season. When (if?) Vrbata returns to TB next fall, he doesn't have to pass through re-entry waivers or anything. He just joins the team. That's what happened with Labarbara, for instance.

It wasn't the KHL, it was the Czech Elite League. But you are correct in that he had to be assigned. TB loses his cap hit as long as he is there, and TB retains his NHL rights. Should he come back midseason though, he'd need to pass through re-entries as it's technically the same as being demoted to the farm team, with the exception that the team is off the hook for the salary (they'd lose the cap hit either for either farm or overseas).

And I second that

Right, so hypothetically, we could have taken him, retained rights without taking a cap hit, then trialled him through the pre-season next year without risk of losing him on re-entry. IF he was good enough, then great, we have him for two more, if not, then we bury him (likely, he'd go back to the Czech league, so no cost).

Given this, the only reason not to do it is that we'd lose our spot in the waiver line.

Acrobat wrote:Right, so hypothetically, we could have taken him, retained rights without taking a cap hit, then trialled him through the pre-season next year without risk of losing him on re-entry. IF he was good enough, then great, we have him for two more, if not, then we bury him (likely, he'd go back to the Czech league, so no cost).

Given this, the only reason not to do it is that we'd lose our spot in the waiver line.

That, or we didn't believe Vrbata is a $3 mil player (a sentiment I would second). Or we didn't want to deal with the uncertainty. Or both.

I'm sure that there are lots of teams besides us that could use scoring.

His clearing all 29 I think says something about how much uncertainty there was.